The Tylenol Murders

0:00 Hello, Bizarre Story friends. You've tuned into the Bizarre AF, a place where we talk about the strange, the unusual, the unknown, and all things bizarre AF. I'm Kevin. I'm going to be your host for today's episode, and as always, we ask that you keep an open mind, keep a skeptical ear, but keep listening to the facts as we take you on our newest journey, the Tylenol Murders.

0:55 Well hello everyone and please welcome my Co host Des with the most Des Alicia. Hey, girl. Hey. How you doing? I'm doing good. How you doing? I'm good. If you're watching, you can see this thing right here. Isn't that cool? It's our, it's J Rod. It looks like J Rod. It's our little alien friend. Yeah, you know, it's funny. We were talking about, we did. We posted it on our tick tock a couple weeks ago. I was like, Oh my God, let's do this idea. Let's gut like, let's, let's do this like viral sound or the sound that's like really trending, but we'll have an alien involved. Right, we did it digitally. Yes, we did it digitally and our alien friend came in digitally and I, honestly, I needed that laugh so fucking bad. And so we're taught.

1:45 I was like crying. I was crying because I thought it was so funny and I was telling and I was like, we would get so much use out of a fucking alien head. We need to like buy a mask. Well then I was like well OK, let me see some alien masks. None of these really look great. What else can we do? I found some like 3D printed masks and then I found 3D print printed mask PDF that you could pay for on Etsy. And then I was telling you about it and you're like, no, let's just get a free 1. And so literally that night the fucking mask was started printing. He's massive. Massive. This is off topic today, but look, I mean, we might as well sure, encourage people, encourage people to laugh. It is.

2:31 I mean look at that huge. It takes up, it takes up like all of your the top of your head and then all the way. Down right, because their heads are so fucking huge. They're massive. They're the top of their heads. They've got a little pretty mouth. Teeny tiny mouth and like it's cut out. Like haven't even cut it out and everything. How long did that take to print? Well, in SO I have actual printing 3 days. Three days. Three days. Like Kevin? Of literal constant printing, but it took longer because I ran out of filaments and I had to wait for it to be delivered. Yes. Which I was telling, I was telling Kevin I'm like, oh fuck. Like I need to get. He's like, there are so many colors of filament.

3:11 Thank God he actually had some green. Oh my. God, right, Yeah. I was like, OK, moving forward, we're going to be printing a lot more things. I need to get some filament and like different colors and there's so much to get so many choices. Kevin sent me options, but there's J Rod, there's our. J Rod Girl Hey, so I have a question for you. Yes. Do you find it difficult to open a fucking aspirin bottle? OK, I'm the worst. This is the worst. I almost think like adult gummies is even harder if you ever in that. I mean, look, you don't need to like honestly, you don't need to. You know those are the hardest. Well, like, you know, you have takes you forever to get the box.

3:54 Like we're talking specifically aspirin and Tylenol. Yeah, it takes you just to get open the box is a nightmare. Oh my God. Because it has like seal. Like a seal on sealed so hard. Yes, really, really hard. Like just the box itself, just at least a sticker. And then you have to like you typically, you typically like break the you RIP the whole thing for whatever reason. You have no patience. And then you got to RIP that freaking plastic seal around the lid. Yes, getting that off sometimes a pain in the egg. Total pain in the ass depending on how it was like put on and then. Putting 17 tons of pressure on the calf to get it off. Right, because you have to push down and then turn it. And then peeling the foil off is impossible. You, Oh my God, have to jab it.

4:38 You oftentimes have to jab it and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how they're like, just peel this little piece of like plastic and then the whole thing will come off. It never happens. It never happens. And then you got to contort your fingers to get the cotton out. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you're like, OK, they should sell some tweezers with this because this is like a very narrow fucking like, yeah, it's a chore. It's a total chore. It's a chore and what the story that I'm telling you about is truly why that exists today. It is. That is what? This is why that exists. Why the pain in the ass situation? Yes, ceremony. It's literally why it exists. I'm excited to hear it. So before you were even a thought in your mama's eye.

5:20 We'll see about that. Or your daddy's eye. September 29th, 1982 to be exact. That's true, I guess. Arlington Heights, this is in Illinois. It's this fire station gets a code one with the color code one. OK Well, a guy by the name of Adam Janis, 27 years old, he wasn't feeling that well that day. And he tells his wife I'm going to stay home from work. And so he takes some pain meds. He wasn't feeling well. They get this 911 call. They go to him, his house. They couldn't revive him. They couldn't stabilize him. And he dies and they're saying he had a heart attack.

6:01 Right. I mean how often? 27 years old which is weird for a heart attack but there was no other cause young and they couldn't revive him. But how often does that happen? Someone just like I don't feel good and they just drop dead. It does happen. Does. Happen. I think they couldn't explain any other. But he was healthy. They're always healthy, family gathers, gathers at the hospital. Everyone's completely confused. They're masking each other. Did Adam have a heart condition? Like did anyone know about he had a heart condition? Is he doing some? Hard drive. He's doing anything weird. His wife's like, no, he just wasn't feeling well. And so his parent, the parents are like, OK, well, I want everyone to come to our house and we're going to kind of do this whole grieving thing. This is later in the afternoon.

6:41 And Adam's brother Stanley and his wife, Teresa, they didn't want to go because they weren't feeling well. They said, we'll come by tomorrow. And mom said, no, no, no, no, I'm at you have to come. We're although families coming. We're insistent you have to come. So they begrudgingly go again. Like I said, they weren't feeling well. They see some Tylenol sitting on the table. They both take some. A few minutes later, Stanley falls down. Foam starts coming out of his mouth. He starts shaking. It's now about 6:00. Arlington Heights gets another Code 1, exact same address that they had just six hours ago. And they're like, this can't be real. And so they get there, realize it's exactly the same situation they just dealt with six hours ago.

7:23 They can't get him stable. They're losing him. Teresa, his wife is holding the paramedic, shaking them, going Stanley, Stanley, Stanley. Suddenly she falls down. Same thing happens to her, can't stabilize her. They both die. Oh my God, they both die. Just die just like they see they see the beforehand. Yes, and they were just there. This is not deja vu. Right. This is the same shit that's happening. Again, same address, same exact scenario, everything's identical. Oh my. God, so we have. Three people at one address dying in six hours. So they call the public health nurse to investigate and she has to come out, try to figure out what is going on.

8:03 She looks to the fridge, see if anybody's had anything toxic to eat. Couldn't try any food. Poisoning or food? Poisoning what? The touching? She just goes to the bathroom, she sees a brand new bottle of extra strength Tylenol. Well, she has the wherewithal to lay them out and counts them, and she sees there are exactly 6 missing. She's got three people dead, 6 capsules missing, generally take two. Right. She's like, it's got to be the Tylenol. Yeah, So. Oh. What a smart cookie. Totally. So the parents get the parents, let's get back to the fire station. One of them calls his friend to kind of tell, tell them what's been happening in the day. And he's telling his friend. He says, you know, the only thing that all of them had in common was Tylenol.

8:47 And his friend pauses and goes, what? He goes, there's this lady in Elk Grove, last name Kellerman, who lost her 12 year old little girl this morning because she had a cold, wanted to stay home from school. Mom let her stay home from school, gave her a couple Tylenol girl dies. What? So like what is happening? This is this is multiple age groups, right? It's not like it's a there's some kind of like what widespread pandemic that's happening and it's really affecting people who are in this demographic, right? This is this kind of is running the gamut. It's different ages, it's men and women, It's it's children and the.

9:29 Thing in common Tylenol. So like, OK. Oh my God, we. Got we got some, we got a problem. So the paramedics call the hospital to talk to the chief critical care doctor. They tell him. And the only thing the doctor's thinking of is there is no way. There is no way you have to take tons of Tylenol to overdose in it. And by the way, it would take like two or three days to die. He like it couldn't happen that fast. So he in his mind he's like this can't possibly be Tylenol because again they had no symptoms and in his mind it would take a few days for this OD to occur. Right, because you have, it's just like a, it's plain numbers, like you can't take that many pills in a day.

10:11 Exactly, so they send the pills to the lab. Confirms that these pills have cyanide. In the next day on the 30th, ACNN reporter kind of gets news, this news ticker about this event. He didn't really have anything going on, so he decides he's going to kind of go investigate this some more. Slow Newsweek. Yeah, they do a press release about how two different locations have had death from extra strength Tylenol and are telling people they really shouldn't take any more until they kind of know more. This starts going national. By the end of that day, there were four more deaths. Oh my God. One of which they don't find out about until, like, a few days later, Poison control line starts overloading because people are so scared that they're literally driving down streets on bullhorn. Stop taking a car.

11:03 Oh, my God. Children are dying, blaring in on TV banners across all programming. I mean, like, they're they're freaking out. So Johnson and Johnson owns a company called McNeil. And McNeil is the company that makes the Tylenol. Yeah, well, Tylenol is the very most profitable product Johnson and Johnson has. I. Can see it. The very most profitable. And so now the executives are scrambling, trying to figure out like, what the fuck? Like we are going, we're dead. Like our company's done. This is, this is our, this is our profit, our money maker. Like this is it. We're done. We're going to get sued, we're going to lose our most profitable product, but we're effed. Right.

11:45 We are like people don't call it acetaminophen, they call it Tylenol. Like, like we don't call it. I don't call it, you know? I don't call it like, you know, you call it Band-Aid. You don't call it, you know, what is it a bandage? Yeah. It's like it is synonymous with acetaminophen, which is the active ingredient in Tylenol. That's right. It's the brand. Name that is right, Q-tip. Cute. Exactly, exactly. Instead of cotton salt. Yeah, of course. You're going to be like, OK, get let's figure out, you know, 9 or 9 or, you know, SOS, put out the bat, the Tylenol bat signal. You need this to be taken off. Exactly the commercials at the time for Tylenol. And I actually remember this time because remember, I'm in junior high.

12:25 Right at this point, yes. In my life and the title commercials were all about our family trusts, Tylenol and hospitals do like it was like 1 in hospital one in five. Doctors or four in five? Doctors, that was like the medication for hospitals, like that was what they would advertise like this is the medication hospitals use. Tylenol is what hospitals use. The pain reliever that. Is the pain reliever of the hospitals. Exactly. And so now suddenly they've got this happening, so people are scared. Right. And now hospitals are like bit we're giving. People Exactly, exactly DA.

13:07 The DA gets a call from the executives at Johnson and Johnson and they ask the DA like what can we do? And the DA is like, stop fucking selling Tylenol. Like, take it off the shelf. That's what you can do, yeah. Yeah, take everything off the shelf. Take it. Off the shelf. So at that time it was the very largest recall that had ever happened in American history. Millions of bottles had to be recalled. Of Tylenol Tylenol. Extra strength Tylenol extra. Strength. So OK, I have just a quick side question. You think they could do this today? You think this would happen today? Do I think what would happen today? Let's. Say something very similar had happened with something that everyone uses.

13:48 They find out, Oh my gosh, it's, you know, something's going on. Poisoned or? Something's poisoned we found, like, you know, whether it's a bad batch, whether it's whatever you think there would be a recall on that level. Probably not. I agree. I totally agree. I think that the fact that this even happened. Because we've had recalls of like salmonella, like all these other things, and it's never been a nationwide. No, like people are getting salmonella like and like what was it all the bird flu stuff? Like a A lot of that had to do with shitty practices or there was something E. Coli like this even works. Like what was it? It was like linked to romaine lettuce and it was. Like a state recall or like our area region, be careful. Buy food.

14:36 Yeah, wash it. And you're like, wait a second, why would we just not? Why would we stop selling it? Because it's it's profit over people owned without. Question. This could never happen today, no. I don't there's. No way I. Agree. I I fully agree. So investigators go to the lab. So the capsules are two parts. There's half red, half white. Well, they see that these capsules that had the cyanide in them, there was this brown ring where the cyanide, those that had cyanide in they found was creating this brown like ring from where the cyanide was forming on the capsule. And they could tell that they had been, they feel like they could tell that they've been pulled apart, emptied, filled with cyanide and put back together.

15:20 That is what they believe. So, so it's, it's on a from a plant, it's from the manufacturing level that's. What they're like, yeah. Did somebody do this, put them in? Yeah, exactly. That's that they're figuring out. They're trying to figure out when did this happen? Yeah, in the whole. Process from the fucking inside. So Ronald Reagan decides he wants the FBI involved. Oh great. Fucking Ronald Reagan. So they they are briefed immediately and they set up a task force. So they need to figure out for sure, like when did this happen? Was it the manufacturing process? It process? Was it between manufacturing in the store? Was it in the store? Because remember, things were not packaged the way that they are today.

16:05 They did not have the impossible to open box. They did not have the wrap around the lid. They did not have the seal on the they did not have any of that. In fact, many times it was just the bottle sitting on the shelf. With just a lid on, we'd. Open it up and you there's a piece of cotton or something in there like that's how they used to sell it. Like it was just, it was just a bottle of pills with like. Aspirin bottle of Tylenol. Right, which makes sense. I'm assuming it was like in a in a plastic container or whatever, but they used. Plastic bottle they used. Like like plastic was a relatively new invention, so it used to be sold I'm sure in like glass bottles and you might even way. Back in the day, yeah, yeah, that was probably behind the pharmacy and stuff.

16:46 But nowadays it was just on the shelf, like you could just go grab it. Why? Wouldn't it be? Open it up and start. You could, you could take two and put it back on the shelf like that's how it was open. Right, right. Back then, which makes sense. There's no reason. There be any reason to do anything different? Yeah. Yeah, it's not like like there's no sadistic reason. People aren't any reason. You're just buying like that's like that's like, well, now we have like an entire thing to buy bananas. It's like, no, you can just buy a banana, grab a banana and buy it singly like there's did you. Know back then you could actually buy cyanide from the hardware store, no? Well, oh, wait, wasn't. Isn't that like rat poison or something? OK, I actually, you know how I knew that? No.

17:27 Well, OK. Or how I knew something like that. Arsenic and Old Lace, The play. Anyway, I didn't know. Like, it was OK. It was a roundabout thing. Wow. Well, they determined that the bottles were all purchased at different stores, so it's not like all the bottles came from the same store. Which is terrifying because you can't be like, OK, it was the specific shipment. Right, they were all in the Chicago area. It's not happening anywhere else. It's not. Happening in any other country or any other state? Yeah. Or any other part of Illinois. It's like within this like 25 mile radius of Chicago. Interesting. And so they map out the stores and the time that it would take to walk to each store, put a bottle on the shelf and then walk out because they're like, OK, did somebody get the bottles, do this, pull them apart, put cyanide in them, put them back in and then go to the put them back in the store.

18:24 This is what they're trying to, to figure out, right? So they go, they map out all the stores, try to say, how long would it take for me to go to each store, put a bottle on the shelf, walk out and go to all of the stores and do that. And they said it would take a little over an hour. So it wasn't implausible to. Pull apart aspects of that. No, to literally have like you go grab. Let's say you go grab. Multiple bottles you go. Tamp you go taint them all and then you go, OK, today I'm going to go put them in the stores. And so then you go store, store, store. It would only take you about an hour to do that. Hey, hey, gotcha. All right. Like to get from one point like so. Maybe they stole the whole bunch and then did it, or they bought a whole bunch and then did it, you know what I mean? That's what they're trying to make sure is it. Is it feasible?

19:13 Is. It feasible. Is it plausible? There were no connection, no crime scene. There's no witness, there's no motive, there's no evidence. There's no fingerprints. They're not connect. Like where do you start? I. Mean especially if what is a 20 mile radius? Yeah. Where do you start? There's so I mean, you have to start in the fucking radius, but also it's like like one, we're not talking about someone who's like mentally stable or mentally there because like, like if you think about it, why would you go to such a huge. Length. Length, yeah, to like you're pulling apart like caps and like here's another question with the like when they're looking at these infected bottles, is it every pill that has.

19:54 No, it's only a certain amount of them in the bottle, generally on the top, but it's a hand. It's like small amount of them that are actually full of cyanide, so. And which, you know, we could go down a rabbit hole, but it's like, OK, what did somebody buy another bottle and then like put cyanide in these capsules well in advance and then throw them in existing bottles, right? Like they could have like just thrown it on the top, but I'm assuming they had counted all of the bottles that were there. So they have the right amount of tablets. It's like, this is like, we talk about conspiracies all the time. This is like a wackadoo conspiracy. Yes. Again, why would you do that? Was it manufacturing?

20:36 Yeah. Was it OK if it was manufacturing, was it intentional? Was it accidental? That's right. Did it happen? And if it was after manufacturing, then you go, well, it has to be intentional if it's after manufacturing, right? And so then it's like, who was it during shipment? Was it when it's received? Was it with after it's put on the shelf? Like where in the fuck does this start? Right. Like even with the manufacturing, it's like, is cyanide somehow in the plant? Why? Is cyanide in the plant if there is cyanide in the So remember that one person I told you about that they found a few days later that they didn't know about? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Well, that woman was a woman by the name of Paula. She was a flight attendant and so when they when investigating her, they end up finding video footage of her at the drugstore.

21:21 Long story of her buying the Tylenol. They actually see her buying it. So they know where she bought it, when she bought it. Well, they also see this man in the background staring at her, and they think he looks very suspicious. He's got this beard. Yeah. They, they they think he's looking right at her this, like, watching her buy it. And so they're like, that's weird. Yeah. So now we're about a week into the task force, and they report this, this this letter surfaces. It's a handwritten letter and it was sent to Johnson and Johnson and it read. This is what it reads, gentlemen. As you can see, it is easy to place cyanide, both potassium and sodium, into capsules sitting on store shelves. And since the cyanide is inside the gelatin, it is easy to get buyers to swallow the bitter pill. Another real beauty is that cyanide operates quickly. It takes so very little and there will be no time to take countermeasures.

22:29 If you don't mind the publicity of these little capsules, then do nothing. So far I have spent less than $50 and it takes me less than 10 minutes per bottle. If you want to stop the killing, then wire $1 million to Bank account 0444517 at the Continental Allied Bank in Chicago. Don't attempt to involve the FBI or local Chicago authorities with this letter. A couple of phone calls by me will undo anything you can possibly do. OK one, can we talk about the fucking like monologue villain monologue like a moment.

23:13 What the fuck Like bro ego check your ego one but. Like. Also, oh, let me let me explain to you. Right, exactly. How? Smart I am and how dumb you are you're. So stupid. I have, I've, I've done ample things. Cyanide, it was really great. With gelatin. It's like, shut the fuck up you fucking piece of shit. Why are you? Doing somebody who would write that letter A. Fucking psycho. Who would put cyanide into capsules? A fucking psycho and. Who wants to like, kill children? A psycho? A 12 year old who's just like it has a headache.

23:53 You think that that's really cool? You know what? Fucking get some friends, get a goddamn hobby, you fucking loser. So are you kidding me? Like and. Who puts a bank account number? Oh my God, like, like, OK, here's another thing. They're like totally pisses me off. You're sitting there. It's like, oh, maybe he's like like when at first as you're reading this, I'm like, maybe this guy like works there or is like a higher up or like is almost like a vigilante like like someone who's like you guys need to start protecting this stuff because it's so easy to get into it. Anyone could do this. Like one, who the fuck would think about? But then two, like my brains like malfunctioning because like it pisses me off that someone even anyways. So like then he goes into it would take Me 2 phone calls to undo everything that you just did. It's like, yeah, bullshit, motherfucker. You just asked, asked them to put $1,000,000 into your bank account.

24:45 It's like, it's like fucking Doctor Evil who has no grasp of like reality now. Like what? 1 billion. 1,000,000 that's easy to send a million dollars, $1 billion, Like what the fuck? Like isn't that like this? It seems to me like it is like a red pill dude, right? Like a person who is not socially like OK, I'm gonna FBI like profile him right now. I'm assuming it's a him. It could be a her. I just don't see it. I don't see it. Although women do kill with like poison and stuff like that. Whatever. I see that as a man. I also think that he has not had sex very often in his life. I think that he has a fucking chip on his shoulder and think that thinks that he is the most intelligent person in the room and that's why he has no friends, not because he's a piece of shit.

25:31 And I would say at the very old, maybe he was married once, but at the very oldest I would think like 40, I think probably younger than that, well. We're going to get into it a second, but your your assessment of their first suspect is not far from that. So the fact that they put a bank account in there was suspicious. So like, first of all, who's that stupid? But then you're like, well, then then that tells me that it's not the person that wrote like that doesn't make sense. Or maybe. Or maybe you're just not on the inside and like like like he's trying to they're gonna double hoodwink you like like it is or double weird. You have to be connected to that person, right? Somehow. Yeah, I would think. So they go look into the bank account. OK.

26:15 And obviously, whose bank account is it? It's this travel agency called Lakeside Travel. They go talk to the business owner. His name's Frederick Miller Mccahey. Pretty wealthy guy, actually comes from a wealthy family. OK. Like, there's they figure out there's he really has no motive to do this. Like, there's, it wasn't adding up. He tells the FBI. You know, what's interesting is I did have a kerfuffle with a, a guy named Robert Richardson. And he's the husband of a former employee, Nancy, by the way. And he had this really big grievance because According to him, her final paycheck bounced. There is debate over whether that happened. Most of them think that's not possibly true. Again, this guy's this guy has money. Right, but also very wealthy people. Yeah, exactly.

27:11 Who knows? But then, so now they go following this Richard Robertson lead. Yeah, Long story short, they figure out his handwriting matches the letter. OK, Richard. Robert. OK, now we're on to something. Yeah. They find his apartment in Chicago. Fits the area. When they go to talk to him, apartment empty. OK. Gone. He's. Totally. Gone. Totally gone. More research turns up an essay that was printed in the Chicago Tribune called A Slice of Chicago Life that he had written some time ago. In the past, yeah. Yeah. Next to the article was his picture so they can actually get a picture of him.

27:54 He's. A dweeb they. Compare the picture to the still video of the footage that they had of the creepy guys starring of Paula. Yes, yeah, of. Course the video. Yes, of course the video of Paula was what? Blurry. Blurry. Always, always, always blurry. But you could see a similarity haircut style. The same had a full. Beard. Similar stature. Similar is similar. So they print out all these wanted Flyers and put them, put them everywhere because back then, you know, it's like the 80s. So you put the Flyers in the post office and you know. Blah blah blah on like on street science, Yeah, on the. Post yeah. So now we're in October of 82, David Barton was the Sergeant in Kansas City Police Department.

28:38 OK, he's watching the news. They they're showing him on, on the news. And he goes, wait a minute, That's not Robert Richardson, that's James Lewis. I know that guy. He's in Kansas City because that guy's not that's no, his name's James Lewis. So he calls the FBI so and says I know this guy. That's not his name. Yeah. So now they're the media starts double dubbing this guy who they don't know. The media doesn't really know at this point. They're dubbing in the Tylenol Killer. Makes sense? Seems obvious. They start looking into his background and they think this guy fits the profile of somebody that could and would do something like this.

29:24 He has like 17 aliases. OK, suspicious. People that they've interviewed, they call him conniving and devious and manipulative and no emotions, no compassions. Some said he's the scariest person they have ever met. Really kind of weird and awkward and and. Doesn't have a lot of. Everything that you you described before. And so they're like, it's got to be him. This has got to be him. He just wrote that fucking letter. Yeah, I mean, it's his handwriting. It's his. He wrote that letter. Well, it was something Robert was his OG name. Robert Richardson. Robert Robert Richardson's. At least we know for sure. It looks like it's his handwriting. They're they're confident, they feel it's confident that it's his handwriting.

30:06 Exactly, yes. So they're still trying to figure out who is this person really? Right. Does he live in Chicago? Does he live in Kansas City? What is his name? Yeah, so. These really they find him they start to investigate him sure enough James Lewis is his name and come to find out he had a pretty awful life he was abandoned as a child, had emotional problems, had trouble at school. Anyway he goes on to get married, has a child his child was born with Down syndrome. Also a heart problem at like 2 had to have an operation to plug the valve. It just his whole life was just hard. Yeah, a series of like unfortunate events. In 78 he opens his own tax business with his wife. Some time goes by and a guy by the name of Ray W becomes their friends.

30:51 And they say that they got introduced by Ray because he would stare in their window. And it was like this really weird thing. He was kind of awkward. And then one time he came in and he said, what is this business? And now who we know is James or Lewis, right? Says we're a tax business. Well, they actually start to become friends. Of course they were. They're both fucking weirdos. Freak finds a freak. Nothing wrong with that. Let your freak flag fly. But also, if you're killing people, fuck you. James daughter now at the age of 5 dies from that heart issue and after she dies would go over to Ray's house and reminisce about his daughter. But Ray says Jim started acting a little strange and making Ray feel uncomfortable like the weird guy that was staring at the window.

31:46 Now James is making the weird guy who was staring the window uncomfortable. What a skill set can we talk about? Can we talk about like how how fucking weird you have to be in order to make with someone with 0 social cues feel like weirded out by you? So heat so Ray tells his sister that one time he saw Jim sitting in a car watching him while he was leaving his dad's house so. He's like a stalker. This is like stalker behavior, so. Yeah. Why? Why? Yeah. Why are you watching that? We're not hanging out. Yes, exactly. So Ray tells his friends about this and that Jim was hanging around too much and something fishy was going on.

32:30 Right about then was the last time anyone ever heard of from Ray again. So when the police come by Ray's house to find him, there's a note on the door and it's on Jim's tax business stationery. It's on his tax business stationery has stuck to his door and it says Raymond has gone to the Ozarks for three to four days. For further information, contact Jim. It was stuck to his door so like. He's clearly expecting someone to look for him. Right. So the police get a warrant. Obviously the guy's missing. Yeah, go into his house. This is like 3 weeks later by the and they see some blood splatter on the walls. And then they look and they see this blood drip from the ceiling, but it's coming from nowhere. It's like it's coming from underneath the crown molding, almost like there's something like a body coming from the attic.

33:22 Yeah. So they go up to the attic and they find a fucking cut up body up there. Shut up and. It's him, no? Are you? Dismembered legs are like cut up. So. He head in a bag, bought torso in a bag, legs in like wrapped in a burlap. EW EW. And he like, he's just living like in his house with his. No, Jim never lived in his house. Jim never lived in his house. No, I mean Ray, Ray. Ray Yeah, Yes. Is the one that's getting murdered up in his attic. Yeah. Ray's getting murdered in his attic. Yes, Ray is dead. In his attic.

34:02 Yes, right. And Jim is gone. Who we think is we thought was Robert Richardson in the beginning, right? Yeah. Is now Jim? We know him as Jim, right? Right, OK. So Ray was the weird stalker at Jim's tax business. They become friends. Ray then tells his friends, well Jim's being weird, stalking me, watching me. Ray disappears. Jim puts a note on Ray's front door on his stationary saying he went to the Ozarks for a few days. So let me know if you have any questions. Do they go fan Ray's chopped up in his attic? What the fuck? Who out weirds the weirdo? What this is like this is like. Crazy, crazy fucking story.

34:45 I like zero. I like. Oh, and we're it's going to get crazier, OK? We're we're only getting, we're only touching the surface. Kevin was like, have you heard of the Tylenol murders? I'm like, yes, I don't know anything about this, this. Is everything's going to connect here in a minute? This is fucking crazy. We are on a train ride. Like to be able to like just think about like the thought process for someone to be able to cut up a fucking body and like, right, that's right, wild. That's. Not I don't even know how a person could do it. You're insane. Insane. So they find a bar of soap in Ray's house because obviously they have to investigate his house.

35:26 Sure. Yeah, yeah. It had blood, some blood, like someone washed their hands, probably right, and a couple of hairs on it. They figure out that one of the hairs matches Jim Lewis. You know Richardson. Right, right. No, no, no. Yeah. Yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes. They also find a $5000 check that was written to Jims tax business from Rays account and they figured out that was a forgery. How did I not connect these dots? Jim gets arrested, yes. Of course. Claims he's innocent. Turns out his Miranda rights were violated because they didn't read his Miranda rights. They had to throw out all of that evidence because they didn't read him his Miranda rights and they had to throw out the case.

36:06 My God. OK, can we talk about the Miranda rights for a second? So if you do not know what they are, it's like the you have the right to remain silent. Anything you can say, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to attorney. If you do not have one, we will provide you. Basically it's like, hey, look, don't fucking tell the police officers. It's like this. This whole thing has to. Tell you not to tell me anything. And then there are tactics, right, that like police will use we're friend, like there are different ways, but you have to read those read it. And if you don't read those rights, it is like against your right as a citizen, as as a human being, right? If you not know what your fucking rights are, right, you do not know whether or not they can be violated.

36:50 So, so it is like a statement of truth that the police have to say before any kind of interview or information can be taken into evidence and we. Can see what happens when you don't. I mean it. Was obviously him. I mean, I'm sorry it's all you would call it circumstantial you? Could call it circumstantial, right? Fucking. You did it. Yeah, please. Yeah. I mean, the fact the fact that, like, all of these things align like this is not a deja vu coincidence. It's like, no, no, no. Like it does not matter if you're looking at an investigation, if it's some kind of weird phenomena. It's like these are things that are legitimate. And if we are unable to connect the dots, like, like you have to be able to.

37:33 You can't get fucking physical proof for every single thing. But like the whole thing was thrown out. How many people have died? How many people have died? Don't know. And some douchebag fucking police. Officer with Tylenol, no. If he's killed someone, he's not the first time. Especially if you're chopping up shit if. He's killed someone, put a fucking head in a goddamn plastic bag and is putting and keeping it in his. That'd be the only thing he's ever done. No fucking way. Yeah, absolutely. So now we're in 1981, which is a year before or so before the Tylenol murders, OK? There are four or five victims of this identity theft that's happening, OK, We're a year before Tylenol now. OK, Tyrus 6 victims, they have this identity theft. Somebody assume their identity.

38:23 Yes, the only thing they all had in common, it was Jim's business. And then they went to go search, found after the fact searching his house. They could see draft extortion letters to companies they saw found fake ID's, they found a book on poisoning, which at the time didn't mean anything. You're like. Fucking thing, Yeah, you're like, this is just like a fucking weird. It's a weird. Person, Yeah. Of course he had one so. He gets arrested for mail fraud or they send out a warrant. That's right, they send out a warrant or something for mail fraud and then they go to arrest him. He jammed again. He's a fugitive, slippery little fucker. He's gone. I mean, yeah, talk about I wouldn't, I would never call him a criminal mastermind, never call him a criminal mastermind.

39:08 This is like sociopathic behavior because it's like he does not care about what's going to happen. He does not care about. He doesn't. Yeah, that's not a consideration, no. No, no, no. It's like, it's like his, like it's his brain's not wired that way. I need this. I'm going to get it. What? I'm going to do. Threaten, as a matter of fact, yeah. So now Jim's living in New York, and he says he hears his name on TV and that the FBI are looking for him not only for this fraud, but now because of the Tylenol murders, right? He's been linked to that. And so he tells his wife because now the FBI are looking for both of them.

39:49 So he tells his wife, he says, so I wrote this letter and she says, what's it about? And he says, well, it's kind of hard to say, but I wrote a letter to a the company who made Tylenol. And of course she knows what has happened with the Tylenol. Yeah, it's national. News. She's devastated. She's like she, he says. She goes and lays in bed for like two or three days after that, won't talk to him. In a complete depression. All she can say to him is how could you do that? How could you do that? How could you do that? Right? So she's completely fucked up now. So he decides now that he's going to send a letter to the Chicago newspaper and tell them that he's innocent.

40:33 So he sends a letter. To the Chicago newspaper. Because innocent people send letters to newspapers to be fucking published. Right, right, right. Smart, smart, smart. Something. Like as you can. Oh, it starts off with as you have probably guessed, this is how the letter starts. As you have probably guessed, my wife and I have not committed the Chicago area Tylenol murders. We do not go around killing people. We'll never have and we never should. Well, as you can tell, as you can tell. OK girl, we don't know who you are. What? Are you fucking talking about girl? We don't know you, we've never met you. Nobody fucking knows you.

41:15 Like no one cares as you can tell as I. Can tell from what? You crazy fuck you. Well, as you can tell, like it still has that, like that air. Of superiority, no doubt. And and and then also his wife is being brought into as you can tell, we know we don't know you. We don't know you from Adam. We don't know who the fuck you are and if you had. Nothing to hide. Go to the police girl. Yes, yeah. I mean. From a basic do not not have like the first thing you do Yes, Chicago Tribune. As you can tell, I'm innocent. Chicago Tribune, I'm ready for my close up, but also I have sent you a telegram that will be delivered not by telegram, but by carrier pigeon.

41:58 We like are you're a fucking piece of shit? Like what weird. A weirdo piece of shit. No SO. The police figure out the letter comes from New York. Hello Postmark we. Live in We live in Chicago, but shit, there's so. They track him down, they figure out where he is. They literally figure it out. They arrest him because remember, there's, like I said, they're still looking for him from extortion from a year ago, right? Yes, he's a he's a wanted man. And so, Jim, you can actually hear this in an interview. He goes, so let me get this straight. You get a letter and you go, well, that must be the guy that did it. And they're like, yeah. I mean, especially.

42:39 Since you just mentioned Tylenol and that we had to give you $1,000,000 to stop the Tylenol, Yeah, we. Know all of this? We have not made all this information public. 1-2 like nobody does this. This is not normal behavior. You think you're smart, the smartest person in the room and you're a fucking fool. Was his wife still with him? Yes, you dumb bitch, you dumb. Bitch, but things are going to start getting weird. My God, was she the killer? Was she? Actually? No. No, no, it wasn't her. So they got to, they got to figure out, they got to track his tracks. So they find that they had bought a one way ticket on a train to New York on September 4th.

43:21 This is 3 weeks before the murders. OK, they narrowed down the time between the time the bottles arrived in the store to be between September 20th and September 22nd. Pills would have been purchased on September 28th and the murders were on September 29th. So this means that they would have had to have been tampered with between September 20th and 27th. Day window. So they go through train tickets, rental cars, airline, like anything they could possibly imagine you're gathering. Information they could. Not find any evidence that he was in Chicago from New York like none connect him to Chicago. What?

44:05 Zip 0 Zilch. So they do convict him for 10 years for extortion. The extortion letter extortion letter to Tylenol. They convict him for 10 years for that. OK. And his wife is just like sitting back doing nothing. Yeah, apparently she's devastated, but. I'm so devastated. I slept for two days even though I believed that my my husband was a killer. OK, I don't care who the hell you are. You know, someone who's killed someone, like killed innocent people like that. I'm not condoning violence. Whatever, fuck off. Like you don't get my sympathy. You don't get anyone's sympathy. Like a 12 year old fucking died like you. Need to do something? If you know something, you got to say. Something you know something say something loose lip sinks ships exactly so. Tylenol changes their manufacturing process based on all of this, what you see today, right? That's what they did.

44:55 Yeah. They're trying to appease the public, right? Because that everyone has this trust about Tylenol. Now you can't trust Tylenol. So they got to do something. Yeah, Yeah. We are not we're not buying it anymore. So I'm sure all of their like their numbers went down drastically, but. By 83, Tylenol had recovered their name. Interesting. They're thinking, OK, there's no way people can contaminate their products again. They've got 15 layers of security on this shit. Boogeyman's in jail like all is right in the world. Yes, things are good. It's now February 8th of 1986. This is four years later, a 23 year old woman by the name of Diane who lives in Yonkers, NY. She dies from taking an extra strength Tylenol doused with cyanide shut. Up I have a couple questions.

45:41 First question, how old is the bottle? New. It's brand new, so it has all of the Yep. But keep in mind it's got all the new packages, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like wrapped like it has like a child proof everything, all the shit. It's not just like a something you can like unwrap and like very easily. It's it's all brand new packaging it would have. Been new packaging, yes. Cyanide again? Yes. Copycat. Like, did she poison herself? Was she poisoned by someone different? What the fuck? J and. J's response is to claim there's another maniac on the loose now that the product's triple quadruple sealed. Everyone's like, well, that seems a stretch, yeah. Yeah, how would have.

46:25 You'd have to believe that someone could get through all of those layers and then reaffix it convincingly for that theory to be true. What? A time consuming process like I don't. Even know how you could do it. Like like I I used to shrink wrap like bath bombs and like those you would. Have to have the Tylenol branded plastic yeah to shrink wrap over that lid a heat. Gun and like yeah and you'd have to do it to everyone the foil like you'd have to stick it back in it's. Not plausible. It's so. Much work and weird just for some woman in Yonkers. Then they find two more bottles of Tylenol found in a Woolworths store. Because now they're starting to investigate and look through and try to be proactive. Not. Again, they. Found two more bottles that had five capsules in each of them with cyanide.

47:11 Is it towards the top again? Yeah. Uh oh. So investigators go back to the manufacturing. Where was the Woolworths at in? Bronxville. So still in New York, Yes. OK. Similar area, so they. Go back to the manufacturing plant again because they're not ready to buy this whole nother maniac theory, right? Right. And typically bottles have like lot sizes and like information. Yes, right, right, right, right. So, and that's the other thing. There was 2 manufacturing plants. There's one in Pennsylvania and there's one in Texas that manufacture Tylenol, but this particular lot was from Pennsylvania. They can't find a single suspect. They're like searching, they cannot figure this out.

47:52 And so now they're going, hey, well, now the 1982 theory seems a little more SUS. Right, because it's. Happening again with all these measures was that were we completely off base in 1982? Yeah. So if we jump back to September 28th, which is a day before people started dialing dying from Tylenol in 82, there's two deputies on shift and they're about, it's about 2:30 in the morning and they go to this Howard Johnson's. It's just West of Chicago. And on the ground, one of the officers sees a bunch of Tylenol pills that had been opened and there's powder like everywhere. And these two great big boxes that say Tylenol on them. And he scoops them up off the ground going, what the fuck? What the fuck is this?

48:42 He shows his partner he's like, look at this. And his partner goes, oh, that's probably just some dumb drug deal that's gone wrong. Just forget about it. It's Tylenol. Bro yeah. Well, this is before the murders, yeah. So. He throws it back down on the ground. They go into Howard Johnson's. He start, he's orders food, sure. And his hand starts to swell and he starts not feeling well. And pretty soon his arm starts to not feel good and be swell up. And so they go to the hospital. Lab tests are done. Yeah, it's reported there was no cyanide found. What?

49:22 OK fuck I have questions. First question, how is cyanide metabolized? If you pick it up, does it? Like can it be seeped through your skin? Yes, can. Will it be you? Can't touch it you can't touch it. You. Can't touch it all and it's traceable if it has like dermal contact. Well, that's the other thing. His partner was getting sick. So like there was transference. They assumed there was some sort of transference. Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. You would think like whether whether it was transference from like, you know, breathing it in or maybe they shook hands or like, yeah, like they touched the same thing. And yes, exactly. Yeah. It was like residue, but like, right. Residue. Yes. What the fuck? So those capsules were supposed to be sent, apparently to the Illinois State crime lab for examination. But somebody else counter mandated that order and redirected them to the Chicago Health Department facility. Like there was this whole like confusion about. Who's the best like department to test it or something or there?

50:24 Was this whole miscommunication about where the the pills went, what the results were, who did it? Like there was this whole like weirdness. There's like a weird a weird thing. Whether it's like incompetence. Or or something else? Something weird happened, Yeah. There, it's not making sense. To this day, they still don't know why those pills were where they were and who put them. Like that whole event. Yeah, they have no idea what that's about, but they're convinced it has to be somehow related. Yeah. I mean, it certainly seems like that, especially if you're like looking back and you're like and two. Cases like we're talking about two cases, yeah. Yeah, it's weird.

51:12 It's totally weird. Freaking. Weird. OK, so the daughter of one of the victims named Michelle Rosen, she starts digging around 2000. Now remember, she was young at the time that this happened, in early 80s nineteen. 82 now. In the 2000s, right. So she's like what, a 20 something? So very Long story short, it turns out that her mother, one of the victims, she actually had a regular because this is her daughter's investigating it. She actually had a regular strength Tylenol. I remember this was all extra strength. Yeah. Her mom had a regular strength Tylenol bottle and those pills are grey and white. Not. Red and white not. Red and white, but in that bottle were six extra strength Tylenol capsules. 4 of them had cyanide, 2 of them did not.

52:01 Now where it gets weird is her mom had just gotten out of the hospital having her sure, and they gave her a unit dose packaging of Tylenol, which is generally those little blister packs, right? Exactly the. Theory is that she probably got those extra strength Tylenol blister packs, put them in her bottle because so she had all her Tylenol together. Oh. Yeah, she didn't. She didn't think of like putting the conserving the like extra strength. From the. Regular Yeah, put. Them all together I don't. Have an extra strength bottle that's. The theory? Well if that is true then the fucking cyanide pills came from the hospital. OK, which angels of death? Angels of death. OK.

52:42 Maybe, maybe nurses if you were going to, but wouldn't you want to direct? If you're an Angel of death? You want to be specific. You don't want some random person. You want to target the people who need, in your opinion, need to move on. Yeah. I mean, if you give them the Tylenol, if you hand them the Tylenol packets, yeah, you could still do that, you know. I guess, I guess if you're a nurse and you wouldn't know which ones were worried. Yeah, I suppose. Or you're like I. Just don't like this person or hey she just like you know, gave birth. I'm fucking either jealous or I just want to kill her. Maybe it's it's control? So let's bounce back to October 11th, 82, for a minute, which is 12 days after the Chicago the big event, right?

53:28 Yeah. So it turns out the FBI had another suspect. His name was Roger Arnold. So this guy owns a bar. The Sorry, a guy that owns a bar calls the FBI and says there's this guy who has been saying he keeps cyanide in his house and he talks about how he wants to poison people and so the FBI arrests him if you. See something, say something and. They did exactly, and they find out he in fact worked in a warehouse in one of the drug stores that sold a bottle of the Tylenol that had the cyanide in it. OK. So when they search his home, they find a book actually about how to poison someone. Why? Do I Why does everyone have these fucking books? Books.

54:10 About how to poison, like, I don't even think that's a thing I don't have. They find an amateur chemistry stuff, unregistered guns and a one way ticket to Thailand for two weeks in the future. Suspicious SUS. Yeah, they go and charge him with weapons violations because that's all they have at this point, Yeah. They need to hold him somehow. He too. Claims he's innocent. Is he read his? Miranda on the yes oh thank God gets out on bail. He's so pissed at the bar owner for reporting him he goes and shoots him shut. The fuck up. But the problem is he didn't shoot. He shot the wrong person. He shot some innocent person. He didn't even get the bar owner. Of course he did. He kills some random innocent person. Oh, he killed the person killed him. Oh, what a piece.

54:56 Telling you this story is going all over the. Place. I know. Seriously wait to get to Thailand like what the fuck Oh my God. So in 2008, this Robert guy, he actually dies, but the Chicago police still thinks he to this day still thinks he was a he was the prime suspect. So Michelle Rosen, the daughter of the victim we talked about before, she's getting more and more convinced that this whole thing is a cover up. The more she investigate, the more she thinks it's a cover up. She doesn't even thinks it's Jim. She didn't even think it's, she doesn't even think it's Jim and J&J will do anything in the world. As you had mentioned at the beginning of this show, a corporation will do anything they possibly can to protect the most valuable thing that's keeping them in business. They'll do whatever it takes.

55:40 Money. It's about money. They want money. It doesn't it doesn't matter what the fuck is happening, right? They don't care. They like profits over people. That's the that's the saying and so. J&J is has continuously said there is no cyanide in our facility. We do it just that's not a thing. Like stop saying it's us. There is no cyanide in our built. We like, we make. We fucking make Tylenol. Right, girl, there's nothing within Tylenol that's like an ingredient for the. Cyanide. Yeah. So they, they're continuing to investigate. J&J is going on TV saying it's impossible for this to occur at the plant. Impossible. We just make, we just make baby wash. Turns out that was a flat out fucking lie. OK, this is making sense.

56:29 Chicago Metal Exam Medical Examiner asks 2 of the representatives at the McNeil Laboratories if there's anywhere in the vicinity of where Tylenol is manufactured. Does cyanide exist? And they said yes, yeah. It's 20 feet away. Are you fucking kidding me? Turns. Out that they end up finding potassium cyanide about 500 feet from about where Tylenol ingredients are brought together. Apparently cyanide is used to test the Tylenol for lead. That's the that's why they have the cyanide. But they fucking lied. They totally lied. Of course they would. Of course course they would.

57:11 I mean, like at first I was like, Oh my, like when I, when I was like telling you I'm like, would this ever happened today? Like no, I'm like, exactly. There's no way it would happen. Like no way. They'd like shut everything down. Oh, total recall. Like they're totally recalling everything. Get like, we will refund you whatever. Like this would not happen today. It didn't happen then either. It didn't happen then either. So you're telling me that Tylenol could have very well fucking poisoned people? Guess what I have in my in my pantry or in my like, medicine cabinet? Acetaminophen, bitch. I have the generic version. I don't have but you have. To buy the taps, the capsules, not the, not the caplet like you have to buy the pills.

57:51 The pills, though, not the. Capsules. The gelatin capsules, yes. Jay and Jay says no, the sunlight's locked up like it's impossible to get. It's logged up. It's impossum on inhuming because it's locked up. Well bitch, that is the dumbest excuse you could possibly say. Yeah, no. No, we have a behind locking key, so. Nobody can open the fucking lock. You are changing. You're changing the whole topic of discussion here, right? We sat. Here and asked you. Yeah, whether or not you had cyanide. You confirmed. No, there's no way. We. Would never do that. There's no way. Now you're like, no, no, it's behind the locking key. It's like, OK, you're a fucking liar. Well. It gets worse because they go sides. We always test for cyanide in our manufacturing so there's no way it could have been in our pills. And they're like, why are you fucking testing for cyanide? Clearly this was a problem.

58:49 Or you knew it could have been, yes. Yeah, yeah, you're aware of it. And you never said this. Yeah, you. Never thought to mention it. It's like, it's like the cheating boyfriend who's like, no, no, we're we're just friends. Like I just, I just like really we just have like this like chemistry or whatever, Like we're just really good friends. And you're like, bitch, I know something's going on. OK, Tylenol. OK, Johnson and Johnson, we see you so. They're clearly very good at controlling the narrative. Of course they have PR companies, they have media, they they have 1,000,000 billions of dollars to manipulate this information. What are 5 fucking people or 12 people who die? Everyone still believes that someone was able to open the newly packaged bottles in a way that was undetectable.

59:35 No one is believing that it could happen at the manufacturing. Johnson and Johnson had to for their theory. This contamination would have meant that it could have gone everywhere, right? If it was contaminated, then everything would be contaminated. Yeah, it would be everywhere, yes, yes, yes. So they needed the contamination to be in a very, they needed that narrative, right? That was the narrative that they needed to support, right? The, the ish. So when J&J did the recall, they themselves and themselves alone are the ones that did all the testing. Of the stuff that came back found not, they say they found nothing. Ask about that and. Right, they, they found nothing and they asked what are you doing with this stuff Oh, we've, we're in the progress of incinerating all 22 million bottles right now of. Course you are.

1:00:23 Of course you are. OK, law enforcement. OK, FBI. Where the hell? OK, Ronald Reagan? Where the hell were you testing this independently? Yeah, that's right. I forgot they probably pay your fucking ass speaking. Of the President for on drugs Burke CEO of Johnson and Johnson gets the Presidential Medal of Freedom, which is the highest honor in for a civilian. Reagan says that was just good business, describing Burke as someone who's lived up to the highest ideal corporate responsibility and grace under fire. Like, well done. Good job. Good job. Like what? It's actually was reported that Burke ran that company very actually closed and very secretive. Like people said that that's actually how he ran the business.

1:01:13 Yeah. And J&J was literally crossed off the suspect list from the very beginning. No, these are our corporate overlords. They would never do anything. Never do that. Never do that. In 1995, James Lewis is finally released from prison. Jim, Right. He goes to Massachusetts with his lie. Why? Goes quiet. Nobody hears from him. By 2004 E Cambridge, a woman is reported missing by her dad. He goes, finds his daughter, takes her to the hospital, determines she was raped. She says the neighbor sprayed her in the face, dragged her to his apartment, put something in her mouth, made her kind of go in and out of consciousness. She remembers being assaulted during all of this. And oh, by the way, my neighbor is Jim Lewis. He's taken into custody, charged with sexual assault, drugging, like 100 other things.

1:02:05 None of his DNA was found on her. Three years go by before the actual start of this trial. The first day of trial, she says, I don't want to do this. I'm not going to do it. Prosecution had to drop the case. So she lied or or she's. So scared and traumatized because she can't do it. That's that's exactly what I was saying. I'm just thinking of corporate grade. But like 100% she could have been so traumatized. She's like, I cannot, I can't. Go through this again, It's three years later. She can't do it again. Yeah. I don't want to relive it like I've already gotten to a point where I can like be halfway normal. So at this point, after he's out of prison, Jailhouse informed. This is where it gets really.

1:02:49 Good. Oh my God. OK. This is where it gets. This is where the pavement hits the road, ladies and gentlemen. That's why you've been sitting here for an hour and 10 minutes. This is why. This is why jailhouse informant says he has something to say. He says that Jim was put into a cell with him during that last three years and says James, Jim was bragging about the only thing he ever got caught doing was the extortion. And so he asked, did you commit the Tylenol murders? Yeah. And Jim says, well, if I got away with it, what do you think That was his response. And he says he, the informant says Jim said he did it out of revenge for his daughter's death. Remember when she died five years from that heart? Attack.

1:03:34 Yes, yes, yes. Well. When she was about two, they put a patch on her heart to plug that hole. That patch failed. It was made by Johnson and Johnson. So the format informant goes on to say that Jim was saying that the only reason he was able to get away with all this because the cops are too stupid to put the whole case together, which sounds like a a criminal would say something like a criminal would say, yeah, of course. Jim says this is just an informant trying to get. On the good. The informant says never offered anything, never asked for anything, never got anything. It's it's strictly my own conscience that's coming forward 2. 1006, FBI is going over the time case again like it's a cold case. Yeah. Roy Lane at the FBI was in charge of interviewing, got to a point in this interview and I actually, you can see this interview online.

1:04:19 They're in a hotel room. Lane goes down this effort to kind of talk to him about the timeline of the ransom letter. Lewis says he spent three days working on this letter to Johnson and Johnson and mailed it on October 1st. Now, if you track this whole thing, it means that he wrote the letter before the story broke. If you go by, if he mailed it on October 1st, has working on it for three days, that means he mailed, he did it, started writing it before all of this happened. Yeah. Before everyone knew about it. You can see his he and he goes, yeah, I can see the conundrum here. OK, well, I must not have been working on it for three days. Maybe it felt like I was working on it for three days. But they're like, in their mind, they're like, see, we fucking got you.

1:05:09 We knew it, so they. They with this, they have enough probable cause to search his apartment. What do they find in his apartment? Fucking nothing. Absolutely nothing that can connect him to any of this stuff other than that letter. There is not not a single piece of evidence that ties into it. Now in 2009 the FBI attained ADNA sample from him. Now remember in 82 there was no DNA. Yeah, yeah. They knew that there was like some kind of science behind it, but it was not right. So they had, they had the evidence and they and they had partial DNA. Yeah. And so. They knew the technology would be happening and they'd be able to potentially use it. Exactly. The FBI isn't saying whether or not that matches. Now in my mind, I'm like, it didn't fucking match. Because if it matched, you would say it matched, right? If it exonerates him, you're not going to say that because you're like a dog with a bone.

1:06:05 You want him, yes. You want? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's your guy. He's your. Guy So if it's something exonerates him, you're not going to make a big deal out. Of it fucking massive this was massive it totally changed the way that like medications even sold but but also here's another thing what if the DNA is inconclusive? What if they don't have enough of a DNA sample to even and make it that? Could be a 2, but we'll say it say it. Well, well, but here's another thing. What if they're still waiting for like the technology to get further so they wouldn't need as much as a sample maybe or they could take a part I'll. Give you that, I'll give you that. Thanks. You're welcome. So 42 years later, this Michelle Rosa, she's still investigating.

1:06:46 We're now 42. Later, she's a. Dog with a fucking bum. She never got to know her, but. She's sure it's not Jim. She's sure so it's not. And she probably. Knows every detail to this fucking case. But FBI won't release some doc. There's some documents they won't release that are interviews with Johnson and Johnson. They won't release them, of course. They won't because they're bought and paid for by Johnson and Johnson. They say it's because it's an open case. I mean, like, here's the thing. Can that be the case? Yeah. Couldn't there be like some honest people on this case, like who are agents? Sure. But at the end of the day, those people have money and money talks and like things are hidden for big companies all the fucking time thing. I'll leave you with is Johnson and Johnson did settle with the families of the seven victims.

1:07:30 They sued Johnson and Johnson, saying that Johnson and Johnson knew the bottles were susceptible to tampering. I guess this was the lawsuit. What they settled with. The amount is undisclosed, but obviously Johnson and Johnson never claimed any. Wrongdoing. Wrongdoing or you know. Yeah. So it's probably like a. Culpability something. Right. Yeah, they can't. They can't sell that and. It was shortly, it's like a year. It was like 3 years after this event. So like mid 80s is when this lawsuit was settled, but Johnson and Johnson obviously doesn't speak to it to this day. FBI is not releasing any of the documents. So when she's trying to investigate that, I mean she can't get any other information about Johnson and Johnson. So you keep ping ponging or I kept ping pong and researching this, going back and forth.

1:08:12 Oh, it's gotta be a fucking jam. And then you're like, OK, but maybe it's not. And then wait the with the lie about the cyanide, OK, maybe they lied because it looked suspicious and they didn't want the focus on them. But then they should have just said it in the first place. Like you know what I mean? 100% there's so many like it's almost you're on a wild goose chase. Wild goose chasing your tail you're. Chasing your tail. There's so many like erroneous, like there's so much erroneous information that you're like, could this connect? Yes, but it also feels like you are fucking reading red. Like there's like strings coming from from things that are seemingly unimportant. So what is like is her theory. The daughter's theory is her theory. Like her best case scenario, does she think it's Johnson and Johnson she.

1:08:56 Does think it can it's it they don't she doesn't know why or who or how, but she doesn't she thinks it happened in manufacturing. I don't think that honestly like I'm like how could you put in manufacturing? I guess, I guess if you had a specific run and you put them in specific bottles so that they'll, that box was very, the bottles that were contaminated were in a specific box, that box went to a store I guess, I guess that's feasible. Yeah, yeah, you can. But it was several stores in Chicago. I guess a run a batch would be in a. Region, yeah. So you would think that that would be like, yeah, a smaller region that it would be. I guess maybe that's plausible, but. Also, like, if that's the case and it was someone like intentionally tampering with these pills, you know, they could very well still work for they could still be alive. They could still work for fucking Tylenol. The thing that's really interesting to me, one, it sucks because we can't we can't say there are more pills that were actually affected, but there.

1:09:58 Were remember, because we had the one event and then a few years later had another event, which is what also leads you to go. It wasn't gym, it would have to be manufacturing because of the whole seal thing, right? Right, the whole seal thing. But I guess, I guess my question would be was like, why hasn't it? Has it not happened? Before. Yeah, it was a very isolated. It was like those few cases by few, I mean, you know, legitimate, like also really sad these people died, but like you had like what, less than 20 people who died from this. Oh yeah, it. Was only like, what was it, 7-8? Incredibly insignificant for the amount of models that go, which is.

1:10:40 Another reason why you go it had to be so like if I put it in concentrated, yes, If I put it in manufacturing, it seems like it just would have been so much bigger area. Like I said, I don't know how they manufacture. So maybe it was a lot and yadda yadda yadda. But oh God. It's also like, OK, OK, armchair detectives, can you guys find people who like were living like citizens who are living in like the Yonkers or like the Yonkers area and then also like that Chicago like area within that radius, who are the I'm sure there are tons of people, but who are the people who are living? Because what if it was just tampered with somehow? Like are they all plastic bottles that these came through?

1:11:22 Because you can you can definitely get into plastic bottles it. Was they are. It was. All plastic, yes. So it's like, what if somebody punctured with a fucking needle or something made like a very tiny hole or. But you couldn't get into a specific 5 specific capsules like that Seems improbable, but. What if you had like some kind of liquid? No, it was the powder in the capsule. God damn it, I. Know I know there's something weird, something weird and plus then you get the psychos that are writing if he didn't do it, why the fuck did you write that letter? Well, because he was trying to he, according to the informant, get back at Johnson and Johnson. Or was he trying to frame the the rich guy? Or I mean like fuck.

1:12:10 It's so. Much like it's too much. Yeah, like a lot of it feels irrelevant it. Does exactly exactly a. Lot of it start. Trying to go on these, like you said, just chasing your tail. Yeah. And so then you get this spaghetti bowl of shit. Yeah. It means nothing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you have to like sift through it and a lot of it feels irrelevant. I think that there's, there has to be some, there is something either with manufacturing or there, there is something there if it's within the gel caps like that's and even in hospitals like I'm just surprised. I was only like 8 or like less than 10 people. That's the thing. That really bothered me was when she figured out where she believes that it where she believes that's her theory, that it came from the hospital, see.

1:12:56 And that's The thing is like, we don't know if we don't know for. Certain. Because she was a baby right at the time and nobody else can speak to that. Yeah, she's just putting pieces together in her mind. Yeah. So that can't be confirmed. Yeah. And we can't confirm any of this because there was no independent testing. There's nothing that was independently tested. We can't say that's. It too. We can't first, like specifically even say that the cyanide was in these gel pills, right? We can't. Even say that it wasn't in other states, maybe it was and they've been got it and incinerated it before people bought it. Yes, yeah. So it could have been, it could have been more widespread and we had no idea possible because the people who were like in charge were also the people who were trying to hide their fucking bullshit. That's right.

1:13:42 My God, I know. It was much. It was a lot like, like, Oh my God. OK, so does it make you want to take aspirin? Honestly, it doesn't bother me. Like it doesn't scare me. I don't know Johnson and fuck Johnson and John. But I'm with you. I take a set of like, pill acetaminophen. Yeah. It's not Tylenol, it's not a cap. So I'm good. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We are not doing capsules over here. Why get fancy when you just have a fucking like, just have it going. Get the generic stuff. Yeah, get it. Get it from a place that, like, you know, is maybe not manufactured by Johnson and Johnson. Right. Get the hard Kirkland pill. We we buy from Costco now we don't go to Target anymore.

1:14:23 God. Well, thank you for like a fascinating story. Sure. Yeah, sorry, I went rabbit. Hole, Oh my God, but. It was a rabbit hole indeed. There's no other way to do it. You can't. You can't do this Short I. I couldn't. I just couldn't because. We still don't even have an answer that's. The thing? Yes. All right, well, chew on that and we'll see what happens. Yes, get the chewable, not the tablet. They're not gonna do. Literally chew on that. Well, thank you. See ya, See ya.