The Clone Code

0:01 Hello bizarre story friends. You've tuned into the Bizarre AF, a place where we talk about the strange, the unusual, the unknown, and all things bizarre AF. I'm Kevin, I'm going to be your host for today's episode. And as always, we ask that you keep an open mind. Keep a skeptical ear, but keep listening to the facts as we take you on our newest journey, the bizarre world of cloning Hello hello, hello, my bizarre story friends and my bizarre my bizarre story Co host Alicia. Hey, girlfriend.

1:07 Hey, hey, hey. How are we? Oh, I think we're great. I think we're great. I have my coffee here. I'm so excited to listen to today's episode and learn a little bit more about cloning. I know, like three things. And OK, here's another thing I know, OK. It. Scares the shit out of me. Does it? It does, because did you ever see that movie The Island or something like that? I think, oh, is that with? Ewan McGregor and Scarlett Johansson. Maybe not. Yeah, it's. Is it about that? It's about clones. Oh, I think I need to go watch that. Yeah, it's about clones. And it's like all these rich people have clones for like basically body parts like when, but the clones don't know I. Love that movie?

2:00 Yes, I remember. It's so good. And they think they're going to an island, right? Yeah, they it's something like where they. Like the clones are getting raised and they think they're going somewhere that they really aren't. Yes, yeah. And. And they live and like they, you know, live really healthy lives, of course. Perfect like nutrition. Yes. And if if like something's a little bit like if you're having too much sodium or whatever, like you're alerted to it. Yes, but yeah, like, so they're it's almost like the winning the lottery. They're like, oh, hopefully my number gets picked so I can go to the island. And in reality, like they're just being harvested for parts and I guess.

2:42 For their rich, their rich person that they got cloned from. Yes, OG. OK, well, we're gonna, we're not gonna be far off of that topic. Of course, of course not. So I guess that takes me. I mean, I was 'cause I was gonna ask you when I mentioned cloning, what's the first thing that pops into your mind? And it is that. Yes, and the goat or the sheep or whatever. Ah, the sheep Dolly. Dolly, I was gonna say Sally. Yeah 'cause then my second question was gonna be, if I said match a word to if I match an image to the word clone, would you think of a field full of sheep or a field full of army soldiers?

3:23 Oh, yeah. Probably initially a field full of sheep, yeah. Yeah, OK, Yeah. Good. Well, most people do, and I think it's a lot of it's because the the they think of the scary part. Because movies, yeah, don't help. But they do. They think of, they think of them, you know, nefarious. Because anything, any way that you can take, like, anything, like, OK, you have technology. It's gonna be used for evil. That's exactly right. Just assume that. Yeah, people are not your. Good thing will be evil.

4:03 Yes, it will be turned bad in some way and and they'll make money off of. It exactly. That's also what it boils down to. So Alicia asked me the other day. She says. Hey, do you happen to know how we can get more time in my day? Because she was kind of stressed out and I said yes. I no, I said no. I don't know how to get more time in your day other than being cloned, but I've already called dibs on that. So stay out of my lane, girl. And Alicia goes, Oh no, you can have your lane. I want no part of your lane.

4:45 I was like, Oh my God, please, like, no, not let's not have like this topic be something that the the gets in between our friendship. Yeah, right. Exactly. OK. So the truth is, the science scientists have been conducting cloning experience for over 50 years, and they're using all sorts of of techniques. And actually there are many companies that would tell you today that I'm too late, that my DIB calling was too late and we're going to and we'll talk about that, we'll talk about them. I also bring this topic up and I thought this was a good week to do it amidst the recent developments in Alabama.

5:31 Oh yeah. And just to recap this scenario for everyone, a clinician in a mobile AL IVF facility was handling frozen embryos and somehow, you know, touched the frozen container or something and burned his hand. And his reaction, quite reasonably, was to drop what he was holding. And it happened to be the embryos which destroyed them. And this led to a lawsuit from the three couples who were, you know, mourning this accidental destruction of the embryos and really wanted to hold somebody accountable for murder. And the court agreed that these cells were in fact children. So if you kill cells, you kill a person. And this started my analytical mind, 'cause I I, that's what I do down the road of how do we define what an embryo is? And if an embryo is created via a sperm entering an egg, this is the same thing as taking like a somatic cell and putting it in an an oocyte, which is ultimately cloning. Are those is that the same thing? And if so, well then that means a clone is no different than you and I.

6:51 But then you have religious people who believe that you know, in the Alabama law that would tell you this is in fact like an abomination of God. I mean, this is this whole dichotomy of back and forth and, you know, one belief contradicting another belief. I mean, it gets real. Cray Cray. It does. And how like, yeah, you you continue to like how, how how far are we going to distill this? And like, I I don't know, like I'm a woman, I have a period and like every single month when an egg is released, Which sounds like reptilian and fucking weird as shit, doesn't it? It's like. Well, 'cause we're gonna talk about you were actually you exist because you are a clone of a reptile. But we'll get to that in a minute. A reptile?

7:34 A reptile. But you know, is that is that a child, even though it has not been fertilized, It's just the natural release of a woman's body every month. An egg. Is that is that actually a child and has the potential for it? It has potential, right? And so then I think people yes, yes, yes, you're right. And we can go down some really crazy deep fucking rabbit holes today. But I wanna keep this super bizarre and super fun and educational. So we're gonna try not to get into those weeds too much, but for now we're gonna, we're gonna go back to 17, about 17 years ago. And this was February 23rd of 1997. And do you know what happened that way? When were you born?

8:18 I I was born 10 years prior, so 1987. OK, do you know what happened in February 23rd of 1997? I'm gonna guess Dolly, yes. OK. Yes, yes. So on that day, news was leaked out in a scientific journal called Nature that they were about to report that after 276 attempts, Oh my God, Scottish researchers actually succeeded in cloning the first mammal using a a a sonomic cell from an adult animal and then produced Dolly the little lamb. And she was created from the utter cell, the udder. Not the other cell, the utter cell of a six year old sheep. Now the news of this event had everyone abuzz. Yeah, I mean it was huge.

9:17 Mixed emotions. People were shocked. Some people were surprised, some people were mortified, Some people were scared. Me and then others, of course, were titillated and curious. So for those that who weren't peeing their pants with fear, the discussions were What about humans? Oh wait, could we make designer humans? Oh wait, could we take the genetic defects out? Make a perfect baby? Could we make armies of warriors?

10:00 Oh my God, the possibilities are endless. Not let's just, like, not play God. Like maybe, maybe let's take a step back and like, maybe not play God. Well, it's exciting and new and and you know you're gonna have the good scientists that go oh, but this can give us this is how we cure diseases. This is how we're gonna you know, right? Like you said, it always turns nefarious. But it it it has potential to be good. Now at this moment there are two O GB YNS named Sorvino Antorini. Oh, I hate when we can't pronounce names.

10:42 I know, it's so annoying. Antinori Sevina Antinori, There You Go, and Penoitas Zavos. And they announced that they would create the first human clone within two years. What we go from sheep straight to. Yes. And at this time, right. And so this is announced and they're like, yeah, we're going to do it. We're going to do humans in two years. And they said they had successfully started human colonial pregnancies, but neither ever announced any of births. So now while all this is happening, all within a very short period of time, after, you know, Dolly, this, all this stuff is like happening. All of a sudden governments around the world started pushing outlaws, right?

11:35 And they're like trying to get emergency laws in that would ban human cloning because people started talking about it and potentials, and so they're the governments and everyone are trying to get in front of it. Yeah, and which is like always, always the case, right. Like, OK, we need to have some kind of legislation that, you know, that gives either clones the rights or us humans the rights. But it's always lags behind technology and science, right? Because they don't really know. Well, that's the other thing. I would argue, like putting a law in place is something that doesn't even exist yet. Yeah, I think you're jumping the gun. You're jumping the gun. I mean it. One, it shows. Like, kind of. It shows what public opinion is, which is terror. They're all frightened.

12:19 So, so, so politicians are gonna step in and be like, oh, don't worry about it, we're gonna try to regulate it. But you have these politicians who don't know anything, and so they're trying to make rules for something that they have absolutely no idea about. No, no, that's right. So if we're able to create humans, how would that conflict with people's belief systems and their Bibles? Playing God, right? If God creates humankind, but now humankind is creating humans, does it call into question God? Are they real people?

13:02 But God doesn't make mistakes. Right. But do they have souls? Are their souls only given to humans who are conceived? You know, with a few minutes of debauchery, right? What about people who have IVF? Those humans are born through science. They take a sperm, put it in an egg, the put the thing in an oven. Baboom. Baby cloning is ultimately the same thing, but instead of a sperm as a starting process, we're taking a copy of a an existing nucleus that has the DNA in it and putting it in an egg and putting it in the oven. So this question, this creates a lot. There's some questions and.

13:47 And morality is? Moral issues? Sure. And if what makes us different truly different is what's on the inside, then does it matter that I have a clone? The clone still gets a soul. I mean, again, I we're not gonna answer these guys. This is like a Twilight Zone or I I feel like all of our top all of our episodes are like Twilight Zone or like Star Trek episodes. Like, I already know how it plays out in Star Trek and what they think like design. Like you're even saying designer babies. Like, so OK, what if you have a child with Down syndrome and now you're like, well, we have this clone or like we we now know like and can control and design our own babies.

14:34 I want a baby with blue eyes, not brown. I'm shit out of luck, right? Like, you know, then a lot. Then we're starting to oh man, this is going to sound bad, but like breed out specific traits from our population. Yes, be it for good or nefarious purposes, but you could like take out all the the bad cells that could create disease or right what people would consider a disability or like. Diabetes or something You wouldn't have to, yeah, which I don't know. Is that a bad thing? Some people would argue yes, it is a bad thing. It's yeah, like I said, there's lots of questions.

15:15 It's a it's a can of worms. It is a can of worms, OK? There's a religious cult Kevin had. You have me at Religious Cult. Tell me more. Realism. It's RAEL rael, and when the E has two dots over it, it's another syllable. So it's rael, rael, rael, Raelism.

15:57 Raelism. Have you ever heard of them? No, I've never heard of it. They're a faction founded in 1970 in France, and it was, by a name, a guy named Claude Vorilhon, I believe, also known as Rahel. OK, now it's a. Little, of course, Of course. Leaders. Gonna have. Well, it's around him. He is a. Narcissist Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Now Rahelism teaches that an extraterrestrial species known as Ulhim created humanity using their advanced technologies, technologies by cloning themselves.

16:38 So we are actually clones of this species. Oh, OK. OK, there is an entire Wikipedia page. Dedicated to this. Dedicated to this, it is packed full of information. All of it. When I say validated in source, I mean there are it's like people it's not just making this stuff up, right. They you know how wiki is that they people will make sure that their sources are validated and that there is, you know, some truth behind it, whether you call it truth or not. Packed, packed, packed, packed. So I'm not gonna go into it, but it's something interesting to read. Real and is this cult still around? Yes, they are still around and they I bring them up because just at this time when when Dolly is created, there's a lots happening in this year.

17:41 Oh yeah. OK, Rael starts a company called Clonade, and they're specifically focused on human cloning. And he sees it as this is the first step to achieving immortality because he was created from a clone, right? Right. And so this is going to, this is, they're gonna, this is how we will achieve mortality, 'cause we're gonna, we're gonna be the first company to actually clone a human, and then that's gonna be our deal. We're gonna clone humans. So OK, so Clone aid is the name of it.

18:25 Like props for creativity, dude. Not very creative. Clone.com still exists. It still does. Oh my God, I'm so gonna look at it It. Looks like a 1990s website built by a grade school child. I hate it. I think it's tacky. And why do all by the way, let me just my pet peeve. I'm gonna get off my soap book on a tangent for a little bit. Why do cult websites have to look so fucking awful? Because they are. They're disgusting, they're cheesy, they're terrible. Yes, with like those. Like remember when you could put like the They're not gifts. What are they like, little? Animations animated like.

19:06 Like a guy, a guy who's at work and he has like the jackhammer and he's like, you know, you're like, why did we do this? It looks so dumb, especially now when you can like do something like you can click. A button and build your website, yes. Yes, like their templates. But anyway, clonea.com. Clonea.com OK, so, so I thought when you were saying clone a.com, it was more like we're going to help create legislature to aid the clones. No, they're literally gonna do. It they're gonna do it. So like what is the aid bit about? Is that like Gatorade? Like, like, I don't. I don't know. Like it's. I'm very confused. They're. Aiding, they're aiding in cloning and.

19:48 Creating clones. But they these are all people who belong in a who who have signed up for a cult. And one thing you know is that they're not the brightest fucking, you know, crayon in the crayon box, right? Like, not the sharpest tools. How are these people going to clone anything? They can't even build a website. So that's what's that's the deceiving part. They have smart, smart, smart, smart scientists that truly believe in this, and they have all kinds of money. No. Oh yes, because they've got Richie Be Rich riches that want to clone be cloned.

20:30 OK, OK, OK. Actually, yes. Rich people who are searching for, like, meaning or whatever always join cults. And they're like, oh, well, oh, you're saying you have all the answers. You just need, like $20,000? Oh, you just need this? Sure, I'll give it to you. I have money. You know, so much money. And these people aren't even joining the cults, they're just giving them the money to. We're. Gonna talk about yes. OK, that. Makes fund their mission. Great. So on December 27th, two days after Christmas in 2002, Clonade's chief executive Bridgette Bozier. Bridgette Bozier, she's French, claims that a baby clone named Eve was born.

21:21 Oh my God, why do they have to call her Eve? I get why it's the Biblical. Wrap two days after Christmas. Yeah, like. The media coverage was intense, as you can imagine. Again full of criticism and ethical debates. So this Florida attorney named Berta Bergard Siegel, he feels like he has to have his nose in everybody's business. He tries to appoint a special guardian for Eve because he thinks, well, this little girl's just going to be a lab rat. She needs to have a special guardian. I'm going to do everything in my power to get her a special guardian. As an American and she's, you know, in France, of course we're going to put our fucking noses into it. So I won't go into all the details.

22:01 Suffice it to say there comes a point in in where he's questioning the company and whether their claim is real because they're not showing proof of this cloned baby. Eve and there are somewhat argument is well but for their own protection, both from the mother who we had the the baby in her uterus and Raven both for her protection. Who's going to be raising this child, by the way, And the child. So we're not gonna do that. But in my mind, I'm like could there but couldn't there still be some other way to show proof that you literally that you did this without giving the identity?

22:42 Yes, you gotta be aware. I mean you could take a video. You could probably. I'm I'm thinking just like you could probably have something along the lines of like time lapse. There has to be some like papers, another like a third party to validate, you know like a third like party scientist or like like community a. Scientist would keep things classic, like they could do it and still keep things secret. They would do that. Yeah, yeah, there's like, that's why they have like, you know research papers and stuff like that. Like there's. Yeah, I think there's what's. Protecting. Yeah, definitely. I think there's ways. And so that was a little Wham Wham for me. Like, OK, that seems a little shady if you're not going to give some level of proof.

23:28 This is starting to smell. It's starting to smell a little bit, Yeah. Yeah, I agree. All right. So with all of now. So now they're getting a lot of attention. People are actually starting to try to sue them for information and etcetera, etcetera. CBS gets a hold of Bridget for an interview. It's a very interesting interview and it's actually from Australia, the 60 Minutes version in Australia on CBS. They are the best. I started watching the 60 minutes in Australia. It's the best. Good Athens stories. They have great stories, OK? Like this has, you know absolutely nothing to do but with but 60 Minutes Australia.

24:15 Often times even when I'm looking like researching topics or whatever, they always are cutting edge and they're thoughtful about what it is that they're I I just, I just watched 60 Minutes Australia on YouTube like all the time. Really. Yeah. They have great. The reporting's really great and. Well, the one, yeah, this one I saw was, it's fantastic. And interesting stories, you know, Do I really want to hear about politicians being douche bags again? Like, you know it? So they covered. This they did. They got a hold of. Her a Bridget and Bridget is. She is a chief, the Chief scientist and kind of like not the CEO. Well, I guess kind of the CEO of the clonade, but remember Rael? Yes.

24:59 Is. The. Leader. Messiah, yeah. And this is all happening under his direction. So they get a hold of her, the interviewer, and it comes out, well, Clonid actually isn't a company there. It's a brand name because no one can find it like a street address or anything. And they go, well, no, it's just it's a brand. And again, their argument is we you, you can't, we can't, you can't know where we are. People will. People are crazy, and they will do crazy things if they know where we are, if we had a physical, if they knew where our brick and mortar building is, where our scientists live, who are scientists, where people would could potentially kill them.

25:41 I mean, I actually, I do agree with that. I I do think that there would be a lot of wackadoos who are like, this is wrong. I mean, even me, like, I'm kind of like you're playing God and I I don't know how. Like I don't trust motherfuckers. I don't trust people to, you know. I don't trust people. So, so it like like is it a cop out potentially. But also is it true? It's totally true. They would like go. I mean, it is France, it's not the United States. People don't have arsenals in their, you know, homes, but still I could see someone doing that. Well and she admits that she knows she now she's she's under a lot of investigations federal investigation.

26:24 She admits all of this and she says she's they've got about five or six lawyers working full time. Everything they're doing is is ethical on on above board. They're they're doing things very methodically, scientifically. And besides, they're not seeking investments from Americans anyway. But tell that to Mark and Tracy Hunt of West Virginia, who gives Clonade half $1,000,000 so that they could get a lab built in West Virginia to clone their son, their dead son.

27:05 Fuck, here is where I was. I was wondering if this if something like this would would take place? Yep, the Food and Drug I'm again, I'm not gonna. I have so much to cover. I'm not gonna go into a lot of these details. But the Food and Drug Administrations, they end up shutting, shutting this lab down. So there is a lab in West Virginia. Not anymore. OK, but there was, there was. OK, so now, but here again I I'm going to jump right up on my soapbox for a hot 2nd and just give you a little preach. I need people to get their feet back down to earth for just a hot second.

27:45 Because you got to understand that if if you clone somebody, that clone is not the same person who you just cloned. Yes. Right. If you take a cell from me and you create a clone of me, that clone is not me. And especially if you are religious at all. I don't have to tell you that you should. You should believe that. And I know I joked about being clone the other day, but the reality is that is a different person. They they don't aren't my slave. They I can't control them.

28:26 I can't make them do half of my job so I can have eight more hours in the day. They are another living being, another human being, and they certainly are not me. And they may look like me and we'll find out. May not be look identical to me, 'cause there were some experiments that we'll talk about with some cat. They did. The cats look nothing like the clone. OK, I guess my my point is, is you you clone just because you clone your son, you're not gonna get your son. That's that's what I'm driving at. And like, here's the thing.

29:11 Grief does crazy things to people. And to be completely honest, like, I'm sorry, but Clone aid is like, they're like it's fucked up to prey upon people who are in the thick of grief. And I've been there. I know like when when you're there, like nothing makes sense. Your brain is like, is fried. Your brain is being taken over and you can't make rational decisions which you know, this family in West Virginia, they're like, oh, we just miss our son so much. He probably died tragically or, you know, or suddenly and they just want to have one more day with him. And you know, even like an animal, like they talk about cloning your, like, you know, pet dog or your pet cat. You know, you clone that that's not going to be the same, you know, animal.

30:14 They're not because what what are we? We are, you know, we are experiences and like that's what makes us who we are. It's the people we've been around, the experiences we've had. It doesn't really have much to do with an exterior, with what we look like on the outside. It's it has everything to do with the sum of our experiences and who we are and how we deal with those those things. An identical twin is in fact a clone. Yes, they are clones. They are actual literal clones. They are two different people. And I don't know if you've ever, like, been friends with identical twins. No.

30:57 I'm not ever, have I? I don't think I have. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I have. Well, my cousin had identical twins. I didn't know them super well, but yes. Yeah. So it's like, like I and I've been friends with identical twins before. IVF was like a big thing because I was born in 1987, so there weren't a ton of twins out like there are today. But they have very different personalities. Like they might have some things that are very similar, but they're they're totally different. They might look the same, but like, OK, we need to think a little bit deeper. Friends like these, it's not the same. Two humans. And how tragic would that be for that those parents in West Virginia to clone their son, let's say they did it and have someone who just, like hated them or like, just was like a total asshole, right? Like, it's like, OK, cool, now we're grieving the fact that we even tried doing this to our son. Exactly.

31:55 And I I know I can pretty much with certainty say they're not gonna be happy. No, because it's. Not their son. And and what they're trying to do is fix a hole that will always be there. Right. Without any, without the CLONES permission by the way. Yes, that's yeah, that's a huge, that's a huge issue like go to therapy, OK, West Virginia parents. Like. Get some therapy. Get some therapy. Do some work. Like don't clone your son. It's weird. Yes, it's weird. So let's talk a little bit about the science of it all. Yes. So there's three kinds types of cloning that happens outside of nature or what we call artificial cloning. That's gene cloning, reproductive cloning and therapeutic cloning.

32:45 OK, so now gene cloning is also known as DNA cloning, and it's very different from reproductive and therapeutic cloning. Now, gene cloning copies genes or segments of DNA. There's a thing called CRISPR. You've heard of it. These words make no sense. Clustered regularly Interspace Short palindromic repeats. That's what a cluster that stands for, and it's a technology that enables geneticists and medical researchers to edit parts of genomes by removing, adding, or altering sections of the DNA sequence. This is how you get blue.

33:27 Eyes. I was gonna say designer babies. Remove the cancer cells or. OK, but this is only like, out of curiosity, Is this only for like embryos? Like so before? Excuse me? Like this is gonna sound so stupid, but you can't do this on existing human beings. Like like let's say they have your DNA. Is your DNA your? DNA is already there. You can't, like, do anything to it. This is on embryos. Although I think that they are working on that and I, and I'm not a scientist by any stretch, but I think this is like you know how they do the, I think what is it called MDNMDNA or RNARNA or something weird like that where they are starting to figure out how to edit. Yep.

34:12 And then you inject that and then you're they replicate and blah blah blah. Which would be great for things like cancer. That's what they're trying to figure out exactly. In 2018, a guy by the name of He Zheng, You Japanese? I can't pronounce it. He reported that he had altered the genetic makeup of IVF embryos and implanted them into a woman's uterus, leading to the birth of twin girls. And now his team from Southern University of of Science and Technology in China, they made use of CRISPR to do this. And they altered the girl's DNA so that they would be resistant to HIV.

34:55 And in 2019, he's convicted in a court of violating medical regulations for for ultimately doing this. He. And he was actually just released from prison, like two years ago. OK, so this is a question, right? Like how do you test whether or not they are, You know, they can't catch HIV. Because you would take their blood or whatever. Oh, you put it. OK. Yeah, I'm like you're not injecting. Something. Like that's fucked up. Yeah. No, no, no. But OK, interesting. So reproductive and therapeutic cloning share a lot of the same techniques, but they're done for different reasons. So reproductive cloning is the copying of whole animals.

35:36 That's what when we're talking about cloning, that's what we think of reproductive. Cloning. OK, OK, OK. So, so whole animals, Yes. Now, in reproductive cloning, researchers remove a sonomic cell. Sonomic cell is just a mature cell you would take from your body like a skin cell. Or an utter cell. Or an powerful from a Nutter and you take that from the animal that you want to copy and then you transfer the DNA or that that the DNA of the donor cell which is the nucleus, that's the word I'm looking for the nucleus which is what carries the DNA and you replace it.

36:21 Yeah in the egg or in an oocyte. And an oocyte is like it's a cell from like the uterus wall that can also has the ability to replicate or split. So it doesn't necessarily an egg, but it has the ability to do what an egg can do. So when you clone, you can either take the nucleus out of the egg and put the new nucleus in or you can do that nucleus DNA with an oocyte cell. So there's those two ways of doing it. Now they can do this in they can remove the the cell in the egg in two different ways.

37:04 The first method they remove the DNA containing nucleus of the sonomic cell with a needle and inject it into an empty egg. And in the second approach they use an electrical current to fuse the entire sonomic cell with the empty egg. So there's like 2 these two different little methods. Very interesting, very intriguing. And then therapeutic cloning produces embryonic stem cells for experiments aimed at creating tissues, replacing. This is how they grow ears. And.

37:45 Kidneys and things like that. Or they get stem cells. From. The yes, the richest source of embryonic stem stem cells. You hear people doing like stem cells research and stuff. Is tissue formed during the first five days after an egg has started to divide. So when you do that cloning or you create the embryo and it starts to divide and and make itself thing. That is the time that it's richest in in stem cells. And they said this stage, the embryo consists of a cluster of about 100 cells and these hundred cells can become anything in your body. That's what's so fucking fascinating. That's how your body grows an ear or grows a kidney or grows a heart or whatever, right?

38:32 It's from the crazy. And so if you, you'd think about if you had those, that is how they can grow ears or grow, you know, leashes. I don't know. Leg fell off. OK, we're gonna grow our new leg or she needs a new replacement kidney. So we're gonna grow her a new kidney from her stem cells. Yes, if you have the stem cells right. Like yes, you first have to have those stem cells. They have those stem cells, yes. Which a lot of people are are doing. Exactly. Yes, Yes, stem cells are harvested and cloned from cloned embryos at that stage of development that I was talking about. But it results in the destruction of the embryo while it's still in the test tube.

39:15 And so now Alabama would tell you that's killing a child. Right. Yeah, that's, I mean that it it does, it does call into question. Yeah, yeah. Which I do know, like those stem like stem cells have helped people who are fighting, you know, diseases. Michael J. Fox, who has Parkinson's disease, like it's helped like stave off some of the worst effects. He's still living like, you know, with that diagnosis. So it helps. It helps people who are. Generated from his own cells, by the way. Right. So it's like. These are his cells. They're we're not just like, but but here's the thing, like a lot of people who are uneducated will sit there and say no, no, there's like baby banks and they have like these babies that they're killing and that's how we're getting, you know, these stem cells.

40:08 So they're they're basically baby killers and. No, They're taking his sonomic cells, putting them in an O site, creating these what people would call embryos. And in the first five days, they're extracting those hundred stem cells and then in the process of that is destroying the embryo. It's his cells. And it's his. Yeah. So he's giving permission for it right? Like. But also the question is, is like if it's a clone, does the clone have? But you're killing a baby. Does the clone have the right? Does that does that. Yes. You know, living thing that is creating something.

40:51 Precisely. Are you killing a living thing? Yes, this is the argument. This is exactly. The argument It's a good question. Now, in 79, researchers produced the first genetically identical mice by splitting the mouse embryos in the test tube and then implanting the embryos into the wombs of the adult female mice. This is exactly what happens to identical twins, right? Right. It literally just goes, it thinks, and it splits in two and goes 2. OK, so that was in 79. Shortly after that, researchers produced the first genetically identical cows, sheep and chicken by transferring the nucleus of a cell from an early embryo into an egg that had been emptied of its nucleus. Like we were talking about before, OK? And then in 97, Dolly's created.

41:40 Good old. Dolly and then two years later. After that, researchers in Japan cloned 8 calves from a single cow. Only four of them survived. Interesting. Other mammals have been cloned by sonamic cells too, like cat, deer, dog, horse, mule, ox, rabbit and rat. And now that we've kind of talked about how science and and how it links to moral, immoral, immoral or moral, you know, kind of beliefs and thoughts and now I'm going to tell you something that cloning happens in nature.

42:27 OK. So, and it's not just done in a lab and I I'll give you 3 examples. Please. There is a plant, well, a tree to be more specific, called a Palmer oak, and it is estimated to be about 13,000 years old. Because it keeps cloning itself, it requires, no, not sexual propagation, but like, there's, you know, like flowers and trees, the pollination, right? It requires none of that. It's literally cloning itself. That's the dream. Am I right?

43:09 You go Palmer Oak. There is a seagrass called a Poseidon Ribbon Weed. It's about probably 4500 years old. Dandelions are another thing. They will clone themselves and they are identical. They are. Identical identical clones I've. Never looked at it. Another example are single celled organisms like bacteria. Oh yeah, they all produce genetically identical offspring through a process called asexual reproduction. It is without any sexual reproduction or reproduction from a bee or a wind. You know pollination, right? Even like cancer cells, right.

43:52 They can replicate, yeah. And that's why, like, like the problem with cancer is that it's these cells that kind of go rogue and they just continue to grow and grow and grow and replicate itself. And we talked about identical twins and the actual splitting of the fertilized eggs. So it's not like this is an unnatural event. Right. Yeah. This is something that is that is happening in nature. It happens. It doesn't just happen in a lab. It's been happening forever. Right. And it's not just twins. I mean, it's not just humans. It's like, you know, it's animals, Plants.

44:35 Yeah. Mainly plants. Now some of the benefits. So I personally, I think we have the same moral considerations for people have with human animals. That or this I personally feel like we need to have the same moral considerations for animal cleaning that we do for people because quite honestly, I have more sympathy for animals. I like animals better than than human beings. OK, but I have a question about that. OK.

45:15 So we want to have, like you're saying, OK, we need to also have sympathy, but is it like, OK, there's so many people who need to be fed, right? If we could clone a meat source and clone it in a way that like maybe the meat source, like a cow or something, and have it grown in a laboratory, which I believe that they have done. They have. In 2008 of January, the FDA approved that and said that is safe. To do it's OK to do yes. So is it's not like they're raising the the cow and having the cow like roam A pasture and then and then killing the cow like it's like lab grown meat, right?

46:04 No. No. Well, they can do that too. They can do that too. Grow a steak. Yeah. You're like, oh hey, we really like can you grow your? Strip. Yeah, No, no, no. They're literally creating cow clowns. And. Then slaughtering the cow. The cow like you would like a birth cow. Yeah, but they are also growing, literally growing a Patty. Right, Which? They are doing that too. I kind of feel like that's a little bit more. Humane, yes. Yes, yeah. Well, yeah. Because, well, OK, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get on the edge of some fringe arguments. Here.

46:44 Oh, OK, yes, we love it here, but. If you're gonna clone something that's living. I mean it's it's a living Organism. It is a, it's a it's a it's it's, it's it is. If you were to find, Let me put it this way, if you were to find this little growing meat Patty on another planet, you would call it life. Yes, that's very well. OK. I mean, yes, yes, you would. Yes, you would. OK, so I'm that's why I get why I'm saying it's kind of French, but you we're so hung up on human cloning humans that the 2nd that it?

47:30 I don't know. Starts to propagate. It is an embryo, so it's a human. Or the minute it's just starts to grow a spine or a heartbeat, or just whatever you define it as a human, then that's when we're saying it's immoral. But in the reality. But does it have a soul? Is that what we're killing? Does the meat Patty have a soul? No, of course it doesn't. But then, I would argue, neither does the little clump of cells. Right, because OK, here's here's the, here's the question. Here's something that comes up in my head. If the meat Patty can replicate itself, by all means, meat Patty replicate Kate yourself like you like.

48:16 Maybe there's something more if the cells or the test tube, like, you know, what were those called? Again, like the babies or like the what they're claiming are babies and embryos. Embryos. Duh, embryos. I could not think of the word if the embryos could sustain life outside of the Petri dish or whatever it's in, by all means. Yes, it's life and it can grow and you know, but it it none of these things can. These are being created in a lab under some very specific settings. So, like, is it really? I don't know. Is it really life?

48:57 But I would argue that a baby growing in A in A can't survive outside of the womb either. But that's killing A you know? You OK? Again, I don't want to get into all these crazy arguments 'cause we could argue, I can see here's my problem, yes, I can argue both sides deeply and. Passionately, yeah. I I totally see both sides. I completely see it, yeah. Especially like, it's just so nuanced. Yes, it is. It is OK. So we talked about asexual replication, the benefits which we were getting into.

49:45 You know, the same researchers that made Dolly, they created other clones that were modified to produce milk that contains a human protein that is essential for blood clotting. And their thought was, OK, well, we're going to create this sheep or yeah, the sheep that produces milk that will have this protein in it that helps human clotting to give to hemophiliacs. Oh my God, yes. Makes perfect sense. Total sense instead of being on on like all of these clotting like blood clotting like. Yes, medications that are doing all these other things. Yeah, like very negative, like side effects. Exactly.

50:30 So now we're just feeding you goats milk that helps you clot your blood. Hopefully you're not, you know, lactose intolerant, right? Right. That's a different problem. That's interesting. So that's a a. Yeah, a definite benefit, yeah. Genetically identical animals are better for drug testing because their results are uniform as opposed to potentially different based upon, like some other genetic makeup. You know what I'm. Saying. So that's another, they say, another benefit of having cloned animals rebuild populations of endangered species, which you you were talking about earlier. Hello, Jurassic Park, bitch. Yes, yeah, cloning them.

51:16 I mean it. OK, so here's a question that just came up in my mind. If you're cloning something, OK, we're making copies, right? We're making a copy of something. When I don't know if anyone has like used a copy machine, maybe people haven't 'cause we don't use paper anymore. But like you have a copy, yes. And you don't have the original file anymore like or the original paper to. Make a copy of a copy. Make a copy of a copy, and the more times you're making a copy of a copy there are there like the copy is not as as dark. You can't see like there. It. Creates defects. There are issues that come up just in a paper, let alone genetic material, where you're making a copy of a copy. You don't have the the OG, the original cause the original's dead, So you're making a copy of a copy and then you have genetic defects that come out of it.

52:15 Or, you know, maybe the clone lives a shorter lifespan. So I don't think they. So I you're right. I think that could would genetically create some big problems I think even for my complete ignorance of of this topic. But what they are cloning are they are cloning originals. So for the. Yeah exactly, exactly. They're not creating a clone and then taking the DNA from the clone to create a clone. They're like, like, well, I'm just gonna use Jurassic Park as example. They're like literally finding the DNA in an old piece of amber, you know what I mean? So that wasn't. A clone, Yeah, it was. It was an original. Yes.

52:55 Or like the sheep or the cows, right? They're not creating them from a clone. They're literally taking them from a cow that was born, you know, out of nature and cloning that into more cows or more whatever. I hope they don't do it with dinosaurs. Well, but well. Oh, they probably have. You know they have. Fiction to Truth Girl. Yeah, it. Should really happen. Oh my. God. They actually did this for an endangered species of ox and some African Wildcats that they had these frozen embryos saved for like a very long time and they they were actually able to start creating these animals. You're saying we could have had the dodo?

53:37 Yes, yes. That is like I really want the dodo. Maybe someone has a? Dodo. Somewhere there has to be something. But OK, scientists, please. Get on the dodo. Get on the dodo. And then then the other one is like you said before cloning your pet. Although again, do not expect. This. To have your Marvin by your side 'cause it's not gonna be your Marvin. No, it's gonna look like your Marvin, but it's not gonna be the same animal. No, no. And like I said before, the researchers had found that they when they had cloned some cats, the cats were like, like, is this the right Did we do this right?

54:24 Like it looks, it looked nothing like what that was cloned from. OK, so that's another thing that like kind of came up up in my head about. It is well, because we carry all of these genetics, right. And like you like, OK, I have brown eyes, but my mom had like blue has like blue-green eyes or something. So I probably also carry the the blue-green eyes. Gene. Gene Yeah, it's just that what was selected is brown eyes for me. Like genetically I did the 23 in me, which I really regret doing, but. Why? Because now they have my fucking. DNA. Oh, right. Yeah.

55:07 And I I don't. Yeah. Anyways, whatever. It's all said and done but but I it's said on there. No one in your family better ever murder anybody 'cause they'll figure out who it is. For sure, yeah. My dad's on there too. It's like, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Hey, if anyone's a machuca like, you're fucked. But it said I I should have straight hair. Genetically, that it's likely that I would have straight hair. My hair is not straight. Hails to the no. Yeah, isn't that interesting? Interesting. Yeah, yeah. That was like one of the things that came out of it. It was like probably has straight hair. Question like the validity of their results, like shouldn't they know?

55:52 Well, I still carry 'cause my mom has straight hair. And my dad, he all of a lot of his siblings, I'm he's one of, let's see, all of his siblings. They don't have nearly as curly hair as I do. He has like six siblings. He's the only one with really curly hair. Some of them have WAVY hair, some of them have straight hair, but no one has like ringlets like I do. You know, out of like 30 plus cousins, 'cause we're Latin and it was Catholic background, like nobody used protection out of all of the all of my cousins 60 plus there's like two of us that have curly hair, which is interesting, but we all have this like similar genetics from that.

56:34 Side Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You would think, but that make that's where it makes sense, where if you have a cat that was orange and it would come out of, you know, black and white, you know, 'cause it still has those those. Traits. Those traits unless you start doing designer. Pick those out and swap them out and all of that shenans. All the shenans. So you know how we were talking about in 2008, the FDA. Approved. Approved. Yeah, that it was safe to eat cloned cow, pig and goat, including milk. Oh, and milk, OK. Right, so if you get milk from a cloned cow, it's cool. It's all cool.

57:21 But for those of you listening who are freaking the fuck out right now thinking you may be eating a cloned cow, it's really expensive to do. Still expensive to do that process right now. So they're not really chances. Are you're not. You haven't eaten or drinking. Unless you unless you like specifically asked for cloned meat, I would I would specifically ask for for like cloned. As long as it was Patty growing the Patty. Yes, I don't necessarily want it to be like raised. A raised clone, yeah. Yeah. Give me a Patty. Yeah. That's weird. Yeah, yeah. What would the I guess?

58:02 I guess here's a question I have is like why would you want to clone like an A protein source like? For the reasons that you mentioned, food. Food security you're creating and it's less harmful to the environment, right? Because not, not. Patty, right. Not the. You're actually literally growing meat. Yeah, Yes, if you're growing meat, yeah. But same truth for I guess. Yeah. So I guess for the when you're actually cloning the animal, I guess it could be argued it's the same thing. You're creating more food source. But currently it's not a problem.

58:42 We can still like these animals are still. I agree. I don't. Being like breeding, of course I we don't. I guess I couldn't know that for sure, but. But it would be a problem if they weren't or like, they were unable to breed. Yeah, that's right. So yeah, what's the purpose? That's why it's so expensive. It's like it's not necessary. Right, right. OK. So again, with any technology, people can use it for good, or they can use it for bad. Here's here's the scenario. Because we know how to clone genes, and we know how to edit genes, and we know how to do reproductive cloning, we could create clones with modified genes. So now you create a dozen super villains, or two dozen or 100 or a million super villains.

59:41 But remember what we talked about before you create your 100 super villains? Maybe 90 of them are like I'm not up for this. Yeah, I'm a peace man. I'm like just like a happy love, dude. Free love, man. So you can try to do all that genetic thing stuff. Yeah. But doesn't guarantee that you're gonna get that. And by the way, when you start effing with genes, I think you are asking for all kinds of problems. Absolutely, I completely agree. I mean, currently people are already like aren't aren't there already designer babies?

1:00:27 Like people can actually choose traits for their children. Yes, in fact I think it's, I seem to recall someone had, they had performed a test and they saw that the baby had the gene or something 4 downs or something of that nature and they were actually went in, took it out, edited it. Yeah. And I don't know whatever became of that, but. Well, I think I I I swear. And this is just, like, definitely conspiracy theory. But I swear I've heard of, like, rich people choosing, like, what color eyes their kids have. I. I wouldn't doubt it. Yeah, I wouldn't doubt it. It it it would not surprise me at all.

1:01:09 You're right. I want a blonde hair, blue eyed little Hitler. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. People. Yeah. And. And it is that nefarious. Like should we just allow people to or you know babies to just have the random traits and then see, I I, I kind of think it is probably wrong but I'm not the person who has a child with a genetic disorder or. Disease. That's right. So. That's right. Now, beyond all these moral struggles that we would have, it is actually more difficult to clone a human than it is an animal. I was going to ask that. Yeah, more complex.

1:01:49 There's two There are these two proteins that are essential for a cell to divide. They call them spindle proteins and they're located really close to that nucleus that carries the DNA, the the chromosomes. And that's true for like primate eggs, like humans and and and monkeys and such. And to have a successful clone you have to remove the nucleus that carries the the DNA and replace it. But you can't fuck with those spindle because if you don't, if you don't have those spindle proteins, it won't work. But because they're so close in a human that it's all that they're, they're always getting destroyed when they try to remove the the nucleus. And I guess there's a couple of ways of removing the nucleus. They do it with through dye or they do it through. There's a couple of other things that also destroy the spindle. It's like a firewall.

1:02:48 But with animals and stuff, it's like a firewall. But with animals and stuff, the those spindles are spread out throughout the egg, and so you're you're you can't destroy them as nearly as easily. Yeah. But yeah, it's kind of like a built in protection. Right, it's built in protection. It's like a fail safe. It's like a fail or like a kill switch, like the spindle. These spindles are like kill switches, so if people are trying to fuck with the human or primate, you know, DNA or replicate them, yeah, it's it's like a fail safe. Now they've gotten better at it. They've started. Of course they have. Of course they have. I found a report where there is a lab in the United States that is cloning humans to this very Dang.

1:03:32 Shut up. But they stopped the process about 14 days into the cycle because that's when it starts to grow a spinal cord and then that's when they're considering it to be on the verge of life. So that's when they stop. That's that's definitely when they air quotes stop. There's no way they haven't now. There are no federal laws in the United States banning cloning. And there's there's 15 states that ban reproductive cloning and three states that prohibit use of money to fund such activity.

1:04:16 There's 10 states that have clone and kill laws that prevent cloned embryo implementation for childbirth but allows the embryos to be destroyed. So it's very, very different depending on what state you're in, as to what you can do and what you cannot do with. Clones. It's, I mean, and and it is interesting because I really wonder what the international laws are because we're speaking from an American perspective. How do you and I do think some countries have have jumped right on the ban? There's a map actually that exists and if you look there are some, there are some countries that have full on ban.

1:05:07 And then India, I think it's India, United Kingdom, Australia, America, I think they have some form of of a of some form of illegal, some form of illegal. I think Canada is full on illegal, I think. Interesting. Yeah, I I I have to look, but I I think that was true. So I end our discussion today where we began. What is an embryo, and by definition is a single stage of development of a particular Organism. An Organism that reproduces sexually embryonic development is part of the life cycle that begins just after fertilization of a female egg by a male sperm cell. That is the definition of an embryo. That definition was created before we knew anything about cloning.

1:06:03 Yeah. And that and that definition specifically calls out sexual reproduction. So does that mean, as I stated before, if I take a sonomic cell and put it in an oocyte, do I have an embryo? I mean, yeah, I think the whole the whole definition needs to be reworked. Yes, exactly. We've got some thinking to do. And is it like Alabama says, the moment a cell mass starts its process? Is that a child? Is it just before it starts to develop a spinal cord like that lab things? Is it when it starts to develop an organ or a heartbeat like?

1:06:44 There's so many freaking questions. So many questions and I I would love to hear people's thoughts on this, but please keep your comments respectful and articulate please, because this can, like I said before, can get into some really sensitive rabbit holes, but I'm curious to see what what people's thoughts are, if they've had any experience with it, if they know any clones, yeah, you are a clone. Oh my God, please tell us. If you had known any scientists that clone, you can pick up the phone or you can hop on our website at the bazaaraf.com.

1:07:27 You can click that little mic in the bottom right hand corner and you can record us a message. Yeah, call us right now. Easy number 970-364-3663. Yeah. We still need that. Jingle 970-364-3663. Give us a call, let us know. Wanna hear what you think about about clones? Do you Do you have any final thoughts? Is your brain just a spin? I think it's my brain's spinning and I think, like you were saying, I could probably argue both sides. I I'm not sure I have a fully formed opinion.

1:08:07 Isn't, and I think not to interrupt you. I feel like that might be the case because you can understand both sides. Totally, yeah. I can totally understand both sides. But I mean, like like you were saying, I would love to hear other people's opinions and that's how I that's how I learn is just by listening to other people. I I don't. I just, I don't know. I I see both sides and I really worry about legislation and people jumping the gun in either direction. In either direction. Kind of like AI too.

1:08:47 It's like exactly. Right on this cusp of the complete unknown, that could really be a moral problem. Yeah. We really have to be careful and thoughtful about how we, how we create legislation and how we create rules and frame frame both issues, especially framing this issue like you don't want to jump the gun, but you also don't want to have people living on an island that are, you know, that are living for body part like to harvest body parts. You know, like I see both sides. But this was so interesting and you know what, I thought that I would believe one thing when we walked into it. And as we've had this conversation, I feel like I'm more confused.

1:09:34 So thanks. You're welcome. Thanks for that, Kevin. Well, at least it makes you think it's you're open to thinking. Yeah. Good. OK, great. Well, thanks for listening and we'll talk to you in a couple of weeks. OK. Thanks. See ya. Bye.