Close Encounters of All Kinds

0:02 Hello, Bizarre Story friends. You've tuned into the Bizarre AF, a place where we talk about the strange, the unusual, the unknown, and all things bizarre AF. I'm Kevin. I'm going to be your host for today's episode, and as always, we ask that you keep an opened mind. Keep a skeptical ear, but keep listening to those facts as we take you on our newest journey, close encounters of all kinds. Well hello everyone and please welcome my Co Hostess with the mostess and my sister from another Mr. Alicia. And another.

1:11 And another mother. Hi, how are you? I'm doing well. How are you today? I'm good. I'm really excited about this episode actually. Good, good, good. Are you? What's new and crazy in your bizarre F world? Nothing. Well, I. Mean we're in a brand new year 2025 all the the last podcast that we did actually were were that as well but I have yeah just been preparing for new year new me and and. Did you dread January? Does it look? Like I do, I do, Yes, I do.

1:52 I care so much about my health. Clearly we don't do that. Like there are better. There are actually, there are some things that that are good, you know, like one, learning new topics like we're doing here today. Also just trying to be a decent human being. You know, I'm just, I'm just trying to work that. Well, I think everyone's New Year's resolution should be they must listen to our podcast the day that they aired. That's a great resolution. Yes, Yes. Yes, yes. Yes. Agreed. Agreed. Please please. Subscribe and then you just get alerted and you don't have to worry about it. Now you think about. It absolutely, yeah. You just. And then guess what you get. You get new. You're trying to learn something new. Yeah, like that's part of your goals. That's part of your goals.

2:35 You're welcome. And just. Subscribe yeah, yeah, yeah. But what we have, we have brand new things that you can learn about yeah. So I'm. Sure, Alicia, that you've heard of the movie close Encounters of a Third Kind? I have, yeah. That's. Have you seen that movie? You know what? I I feel bad because I've not seen the movie. You've never seen the movie. I've never seen it. I've never seen it, but it's a Steven Spielberg, right? It is. OK, it is. So I mean, and now if you are to watch it now, you'd be kind of probably be like it was a little slow just cause movies moved to a slower pace back then. Right. Yeah. But I really think you need to watch. It, I feel like it's scary.

3:15 No, no, no, no. I feel like if you are into weird stuff, this is something that everyone talks about. They're like, Oh my gosh, close Encounters. Like that's a, it's a terminology that everyone knows about. I don't know what each kind is, but this is the third kind. This. Yeah, The movie's about the third kind. OK, we're gonna talk about all kinds. I'm so stoked. For it, we're gonna talk about who came up with it, OK? Why they came up with it? What is it? Yeah. And if there's three, is there not one and two, perhaps more? Yeah, right, right. I don't even know what 1 and 2 is, right. Like I need. Yeah, we always. Hear about close to counter the third kind. That's all we ever hear about, yeah. Yeah.

3:56 Absolutely. So we're gonna talk about all of that schnaz. Good. So the classification system itself comes from an astronomer who was at The Ohio State University, and his name was Mr. Haynik HAHYNEK Joseph Allen. OK, I'm going to call him Joseph because he and I, you know, kind of like buds. You guys are you guys are bed. Buds OK, so Joseph was born in 1910. He died in 1986, and as I said, he was an astronomer, he was a professor and he was a ufologist. We love that.

4:41 We love that we. Love a scholar that's also a ufologist? Now, he's probably when you come up with his name, when you mentioned his name in that, is that people are, they know him as a Ufologist. That's kind of not. They don't go, oh, he was a remainder or, you know, yeah, it's not he's a ufologist, right. But really an astronomer. I mean, that's how his life started. Studying the stars. Yeah, and he acted as a scientific advisor on UFO studies undertaken by the US Air Force. This is how he became a Ufologist and he was worked under 3 projects. They were called Project Sign, Project Grudge and Project Blue Book. We know.

5:25 We definitely know. We know about one. Of these, yeah. So have you heard of Project Sign? No, no, I don't know what that is. OK, so very short lived. OK Sign and Grudge were very short lived. So Project Sign was established in 481948. OK, it ended in 49 and it was led by the Air Force General, a guy by a guy by the name of Nathan. Twin Twinning. Twinning. I like the T twinning. And he was the head of Air Technical Service Command. Okay, now, initially this project was called Project Saucer.

6:09 Yeah, that's too obvy. They're like no too obvy girl. You know what? We would really love to be able to call it what it actually is, which is my saucers, but maybe people would get it a little bit. So we have to be a little bit more mysterious. It's called sign. Yeah, because that's like around the time of like Roswell and stuff, right? Totes. OK, totes so and like, you know, all of this, it was right after World War 2 and people were like what the fuck is in the sky? And, and we had that and. We're gonna get into Project Grudge. Oh. OK, OK, OK, OK. Yeah, yeah, it all connects. So, so the goal of Project Sign was to collect, evaluate and distribute within the government all information that they could find relating to UFOs.

7:01 This is kind of like the beginning of it, of disclosure, yes, of the research and the let's try to get all of our information together and see what's real and what isn't real and. Right, because during that time, military, right, the military was, you know, we were just out of a war. We still had a ton of military personnel. Yeah. So this stuff is happening. Let's try to organize it because we have the folks to do so. Sure. So that it makes sense that you you'd start these projects, maybe not call them Project Saucer or projects, you know, Martian or, you know, Green Guy. Yeah, Yeah, probably a good idea, yeah. So and then they want to obviously make their, their primary concern was making sure it didn't interfere with national security, as does a broadband. Everything's, yeah, national security. OK, so when Project Sign hired our buddy Joseph, yeah, he was a complete skeptic of UFOs, 100%.

8:03 He's like UFOs from UFO, right? And he suspected that really, these were all unreliable witnesses. They were people that had ultimately just misidentified stuff, not normal stuff. Right, they're not, as do all debunkers. Yes, yeah, they're not pilots, so they don't know what what planes look like. Key right there. Yeah. And they don't know the new technology. They don't know, you know, they're not aware of, you know, propulsion systems and how they work. And of course, there would be a lot of money in it, so they probably have. Yeah. It makes sense that he would be rational because that's what you want to sign. And he's a scientist.

8:45 Exactly. Astrologer, scientist. Stars. Yeah. It's like. Box, Yeah. See Prove. Yeah, astronomy's a huge. It's it's it's a science. Yeah. So he in 48 our buddy was quoted as saying the whole subject seems utterly ridiculous and he describes it as a fad that would soon pass. Well, let's say. Well. Sorry, buddy, this I wish it were just a fad and we just we're into, you know, space and, you know, going to the moon and, you know, meeting, you know, friends there. But we're in 2025 letting.

9:31 Past that girl. If she only knew. If she only knew. It's really wishful thinking. So in his 1970. He writes a book in 1977 by the. Way OK. Years later, he said that he actually enjoyed his role as a debunker for the Air Force, and that debunking was what the Air Force expected of him. Which makes sense. I mean, that was his ultimate goal. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you're hiring a scientist. You want the person to be able like, the better thing is we know exactly what's going on. Here's how we can say that it's just a weather balloon or, or it's it's just like a fraction of light that stopped off of a cloud and then something freaking happened. But you can't.

10:17 You just don't understand because you're a layman. You're a dummy. You're a dum dum and. It's just a dust orp. Yeah, it's just a dust. It's just a dust orp. You're just a dumb dumb. Of course they'd want a scientist to debunk everything, and of course he would want to be able to debunk everything. Of course, because. Then you. Look at him. Yeah, yeah. Hey, I just proved that this is not in fact. See, I'm very capable. And you have an answer. A nice cut answer. Which I, as a scientist, love you. Want, yeah. So then project sign then turns into Project Grudge. OK now Project Grudge was also very short lived. It was the purpose of Project Grudge was to, quote, alleviate public anxiety over UFOs and persuade the public that UFOs constituted nothing unusual or extraordinary.

11:12 That was the point. So the the point is to say there is no such thing. Don't look behind the the curtain, right? Whether there was or not. It was that was the. That was his purpose. OK, so we always ask about like, oh, disinformation and like. Uh huh. So this is saying straight up. Disinformation. Yes. That's exactly. This is not a, it's not a tinfoil hat thing. It's a reality. That's the whole point of. His role? Right. And this project. So UFO exciting were explained as balloons, conventional aircraft, planets, meteors, optical illusions, solar reflections, large hailstones. Yeah.

12:02 OK, OK, sorry, but you know the the two of you, you see, you see you. I know that you guys are both thinking that, but this is a big old flying saucer. Really. It's a big old car. Hailstone. A big old car size Hailstone right that moved strangely in the right but once again. Perfectly spherical, floating, Nothing. Any. Sound there is no storm going on. It is but it but it was a freak of nature accident which actually, you know occurs.

12:42 I mean we've been talking about this so many times it's like and this is proof that this actually has happened and there are legitimate projects within the government that I have shown yes, that's their whole goal. The whole goal is just information and trying to keep the information that they do have from infiltrating the public. Like exactly. It's a weather balloon. You don't know what weather balloons look like meteorologists do, but how many of those are there? You know, that's right. Makes sense. So project officials recommended that the project be reduced in scope because the very existence of the Air Force official interest, encouraging people to believe in UF OS contributed to this, what they called a war hysteria atmosphere.

13:31 So that the pure nature that they're focusing energy on debunking it makes people not, you know, go what the hell? Yeah, so which it's still, so it still does create a hysteria. It still does create. But but you know, I mean, we talk about like War of the Worlds and that when they had first broadcast that it was just a reading of people have said, oh, maybe we'll talk about this in the future. But people have said it was actually just like a touch base that the the government was trying to see how people's reaction would be to aliens flying in the sky and it was not good. No, people were. Scared people were scared people were like burning things down, looting like it was like that's the end of the world, right.

14:15 So it's like these are these are legitimate, you know, concerns yes. If the public does know, I know they can't handle it, but potentially. So what? Yeah, it's. I guess it's a fine line. I, I, I think that it's a fine line between, you know, scaring the hell out of people with a fictional story and like, literally people like, have you ever listened to War of the World? Clips I don't think I've listened to beginning and. Ending. People are screaming in it. It sounds like pandemonium. It sounds like there is a war that's going on and people are like fucking. Panicked and they don't know any different. It's just radio, girl. It's just radio and they can't see anything, right? So it's like so they don't know. Then it adds and. They broadcasted it in such a way that made that people had no idea that it was fiction, right?

15:02 They didn't know. It was an if you caught it in the middle when the invasion happened and you're listening. To an it's like. You have the alarm going off, you have people going. Oh my God, God, my child was oh, whatever. And things are burning and you know, whatever it's it's like this. It's a dramatized read that is supposed to sound like reality. They did not issue, you know, these statements before, you know, they maybe issued it right before, but not before the segments. So people thought that it was actually, it was happening and it was a newscast that was happening, which would make sense as to why the public or the the government would think this is how the public's going to react in reality. It's like, yeah, it's because it's a dramatized reading and there was no, like, context for it. These people just thought, so I get both sides. But also, can we treat our the public like they have a brain? That's just it too.

15:57 That's just it too. But do they? Because we see how they behave. No, no, no, because, because we have drones flying overhead and orbs and they're like, yeah, we're watching them. Why right? You're. Just watching them. Yeah, we're not. It's fine. We're we're observing them. It's fine. It's like, no, no, no. Why don't you just tell us? Because at this point, there's been so much information. Right. Because if you don't care about them, tell us why you don't care about them. Yes, tell me that. There's no context. There's like, you don't even you're not even saying why you don't care. Well, it's because John Bob is an asshole and he's you're not even saying that.

16:40 Yeah, and I understand from a like a what is it like a just being able to protect like if you're if you have new technology, why you would not want that to be known? Yes, I understand that. Yes, but at the same time give us a fucking bone that but. Give us a bone. Give us some kind of a bone. Otherwise, we're just going to be like a dog without a bone. So we're trying to, we are trying to fill in the blanks. And what happens when humans fill in the blanks? Then there's then there's distrust. We start distrusting, you know, these powers that be, which I would say is currently the environment that we're living in. We start distrusting like what the media is telling us.

17:20 We start not believing anything that they're saying, oh, we can't trust the government because they're clearly lying to us. We can't trust, you know, our officials, They're, they have, you know, so how are we going to fill in the blanks? I don't know. I don't know. That's why we're we are talking about this kind of stuff exactly, but they've been, we don't have the answers. We don't have the answers. We just ask the questions. It makes sense. So on December 27th in 1949, the Air Force says ixnay on the edge Gray. Let's start Project Blue Book.

18:03 Oh, OK, OK, so so saucer turns into. Grudge Grudge turns into. Blue Book. OK. So it's kind of in a continuation. Exactly so. Blue Book was the code name for a systematic study of UFOs by the United States Air Force from March 1952 to its termination in 69. Now this bad boy lasted. Right, that's, that's what, 16 years? Yeah. Yeah. 980. Yeah. 98. Yeah. Yeah 1716. Seventeen. Yeah. Project was headquartered in Wright Peterson Air Force Base in Ohio, and it was directed by a guy, a Captain Edward Rupelt. Now the project had two goals, namely to determine if UFOs were what a national security threat, and then to scientifically analyze data.

19:06 So. Whatever Data, data, data. OK, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So thousands of UFO reports were collected, analyzed and filed. And as a result, there's something called a Condon report. Oh, I've heard of this. OK. You need to rate it girl. OK. Crazy. OK, adding it to my To Do List. Yeah, I'm not going to go and do it here because we're going to completely derail. OK, we really got. That but it concluded that the study of UFOs was unlikely to yield major scientific discoveries and review of the report by the National Academy of Sciences Project Blue Book was terminated in 69.

19:52 They're like, Nah, we're not gonna get anywhere and it's not gonna be really beating anything useful. And national security, I'm not worried about it there. So yeah, let's a waste of time. Let's just cancel this. Yeah, let's cancel this. Let's cancel this. But they were doing it for 16 years. OK. They decided to change the name from Saucer to Grudge. Yeah. Which Saucer to Grudge? OK, Grudge. Yeah, like we all have a grudge. Whatever. Well, actually it was saucer to sign to grudge to Blue Book. That's. Right, yeah, Saucer to sign, which reminds me of Signs the movie to Grudge and then Project Blue Book. Yeah.

20:35 So this has been going on. It's had like 4 different freaking names and it's just not. We don't need to continue this. This are they what? What is this they? So they were gathering information this whole time, right? And gathering information on these like flying objects and then trying to decide whether or not they're a threat. Those were the two goals. Right. Yeah. So the Air Force supplies this as the summary of their investigation, right? These three things no UFOs reported, investigated, and evaluated by the Air Force was ever an indication of a threat to national security. No evidence submitted or discovered by the Air Force that sightings categorized as unidentified represented technological developments or principles beyond the range of modern scientific knowledge.

21:31 And lastly, there was no evidence indicating that sightings categorized as unidentified or extraterrestrial. So cancelled. Lies. This is such bullshit lies. So they started off with this with the name of like Project Saucer. Like. What the fuck? I'm sorry, the name is Saucer. We had nothing. We can look back in time and it's been what, 80 years or 70 years, whatever, since this project has started. So it's been almost a century. We don't have anything. Anything. Well, maybe a drone or something like that, but nothing that looks like a fucking saucer. So you're telling me that the government since the 1940s has had technology or some government has had technology that looks like a saucer that looks like a saucer? I've not seen it, but and yet they have declassified like, you know, like big ass drones and spy surveillance that look nothing like a fucking saucer.

22:38 So they're straight up lying. Straight up. They're lying. Lying. Oh hey girls and boys, if you're watching, take a look at this. OK, as we, you know, because we love to digress at the bizarre. AFI mean, we love to go on soapboxes and tangents. And that's just our that's our jam. Especially when it comes to this. Take a look at this girl. Remember this? Oh my God yes I do. I remember this. This was the episode that scared the shit out of me and I actually had a really hard time like sleeping for. OK, you tell me that. You tell me that you're gonna, you're gonna see that and you're gonna go me.

23:20 Yeah, that's nothing. And and it's that video that you had shown and you can like if you zoom in. You can see the fucking heads and eyes. You can see heads and eyes that look a lot bigger than ours, and they do look like those, like almond, like big old beetly shaped eyes. The Grays, the Grays. That's exactly what it was. Like, don't tell me that that's not a saucer. It's. A saucer. Dude, it's a saucer. You idiots and stop lying to me. Stop it. And like, it's, it's the same conversation. It's like, it's like we're in a relationship with a narcissist. Right. And they're gaslighting us. They're gaslighting. That's exactly it.

24:02 That's it. That's exactly it. OK, that's U.S. government. Stop it. We, we love you. We love to hate you. We have a love hate relationship. Yeah, but you need to stop gaslighting. Stop it. Immediately. Like we thought you were cute before, but now get off of your soapbox, OK? We can have a much more deeper intimate relationship if you just stop gaslighting us. It's God. Fuck you for the love of God. For the love of God. So by the time Project Blue Book ended, it had collected 12,618 reports and concluded that most of them were misidentifications of natural phenomenon.

24:46 You know, like clouds and stars and dust orps and dust Orps and conventional aircraft. No. And according to the National Reconnaissance Office, a number of the reports could be explained by flights of the formerly secret reconnaissance planes, if, you know, EU twos and the A twelves and those things. So, OK, maybe right 'cause we didn't know about them. They're secret. They're like, yeah, OK, yeah, OK. That's fine. Yeah, some of that. Yeah, OK, sure. But 701 were classified as unexplained even after stringent. And now, like they couldn't. They're like, I don't know. We don't know. 700 Oh and one.

25:30 And and that one, that one that you just showed us, yeah. And. That one, That one. Well, OK, so they're like, yeah, these ones we weren't really able to make anything out of, but right. But chances are. We know that it's fine. Yeah, it's fine. Sounds a lot like the current conversation. OK. Thank you for saying that because that's what I was going to say. It's almost like a full circle moment. Yes, yeah, because it sounds like. Right where we are. Yeah, we're, we're, we're, we're the government is still telling us, yeah, those things in the sky that are flying above people's homes and not just the things that are flying above people's homes. The orbs.

26:15 Like they don't even talk about the orbs. They're talking about the drones. Which the drones, Yeah, fucking whatever. Sure, they're drones and you guys are just spying on your people like whatever. Or China, It's like whatever the fucking case may be. But it's the same rhetoric. It's the same conversation where they're saying, yeah, we are watching them, these 701, you know, things that we can't identify. We're we're monitoring them. You're monitoring them. Yeah. And then we're and it's like, Nah. And in fact, are we really blowing them? No, because I don't think they're anything. Yeah, yeah. They're not anything. You can't even say what they are.

26:55 Right. Are we going crazy? See, doesn't it feel like that? Yes, yeah, it it feels like that. And there's some like political stuff that happens too where I go. Am I the crazy one? Like am I being crazy? No. I don't feel like I'm the one being crazy. No, I would say out of the both of us, I feel like you're much more measured than I am. But no, you're not going crazy like this, is it? Is it is what is it that do you know that saying I know Judge, Judge Judy loves it, but it's like, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining, right? Like what?

27:36 What are we? What are we doing here? Where? Like, of course we're not going to believe them. It's the same story. See, that's how I think all of our stuff kind of interconnects because our episode last week with Bluebeam. Bluebeam. Yeah, like, OK, well, it makes sense if that's what they're doing. So if you didn't listen to last week, this conversation connects into last week's in that in that respect that where they're making us feel like they're fucking crazy. Yeah, where you're questioning, like we are questioning our reality in various ways. Like, you know, there's also natural disasters, you know, that are happening currently.

28:17 But, and they always will. But yeah, it's like you do feel like you're. What's the truth? What is the truth and like which way is up? It's like, I know what my reality is, but you're telling me that it's something different. That's the other thing too. Like they will tell you some things that you just don't know, right? And maybe you'll get conflicting reports. You're like, what's true, what's not? But then there's things where like but bitch, I just saw some this and you're telling me I didn't see that Eat me. Gaslighting. Gaslighting. They are gaslighting us. Why? Why? Blue Beam as an is a is a possibility project. Blue Beam is a possibility different than Blue Book. By the way, you must love the word blue. I know.

29:08 Blue is a thing. OK, so I digress. Back to why we're here today to talk about Mr. Joseph. So now we understand how he connects yes to the bigger picture. Right, he's been a part of all these projects. He's been part of all of the shenanigans. So in April of 1953, Joseph writes a report for the Journal of the Optical Society of America. You ever heard of that? It sounds boring as fuck. Doesn't it? Like I think I would? Oh totally.

29:49 Just my eyes would cross. Yeah, you fall asleep too. And it was titled Usual Aerial Phenomena. Usual. Usual. Oh, wait, no, unusual. Oh. OK. I was hoping. Yeah, OK. I type what there it's. Unusual. Unusual. OK, that makes sense. That makes more sense. OK. Which sounds a lot like unidentified, right? Because he probably didn't want to use UFO, right? Because we'll get into the into it in a minute. Because he has some regrets. Oh, OK, good to know. OK. Because remember, he was part of the project of grunge, right?

30:33 Was all. Like how? We need to have you just explain this. Scold you like, that's stupid. Don't be stupid, silly goose. You're not smart. That's why you don't know what's in the sky. So this is one of his best known statements. He says, quote, ridicule is not part of the scientific method, and people should not be taught that it is. The steady flow of reports, often made in concert by reliable observers, raises questions of scientific obligation and responsibility. Is there any residue that is worth that is worthy of scientific attention? And if there isn't, does not an obligation exist to say so to the public in words of open, not in words of open ridicule, but seriously, to keep faith with the trust of the public in places, in science and in with scientists? Bingo.

31:44 Thank you. Thank you. Joseph, we love you. OK, but but yeah, that's that's exactly it. It's like, OK, we know what this is, why are we not sharing it with people? Why is there secrecy? Don't ridicule them. Don't tell them that they're being Cray Cray. Yeah, here's here's an actual. This is what this is. Yeah. Why why, why the secrecy? Why the secrecy behind? Like, if you're trying to be a scientist, everything should. The data should be shared with everyone to a point where there is no question. There's no question about your theory.

32:24 There's no question about. But we've seen enough movies to know that the scientist wants to Get the facts out there, but there's always some other reason why someone else doesn't, be it political, monetary power, all these other things that take precedence over the scientific knowledge. Absolutely. Always. Yep, Yep. It's never like, because what is it? What? We said it in the last episode. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Period. So yeah, when you have other people who are pulling the strings. Yeah, the scientist loses out. Exactly. So I believe I this, I believe his statement that he just said was largely stemmed from his involvement with the Robertson Robertson panel.

33:14 Have you heard of this? No, I'm not. Which ultimately concluded there was nothing anomalous about UFOs, nothing crazy. I mean, I'm completely summarizing, right. OK. And that a public relations campaign should be undertaken to debunk the subject and ridicule public interest. That's ultimately what this Robertson panel ended up with. And he later said and thought about that. The Robertson panel was really, really what made UFOs a disreputable field of study. That is really what did it. And it just kept going from there.

33:55 OK, OK. That makes OK. So this makes a lot of sense because initially, you know, when we like Roswell had happened, right? You know, you had journalists and people who are like, they're like, oh, hey, look, like even the police officers are like, what the fuck is in this field here? We're going to take pictures of it. We're going to post it in the newspaper. And people are like, Oh my God, what is this? Now these people are seen Betty and Barney Hill. They won't do it. They they will not come out because you are ridiculed, your name is tarnished. You're not seen as a as a person who you know, thinks logically, who thinks, you know, soundly, who has their brain together. You're seen as that person reporters and newspapers, reporters and newspapers, They won't even touch this, the 10 foot pole. No, I mean, and that's been for years and years and years. It's not until very, very recently that. Can you hear that?

34:52 We're having someone thank you. So but you have these reporters and stuff that wouldn't touch it till with a 10 foot pole until recently when there was such like stringic like like very strict proof from military professionals from pilots who knew how, you know, planes and things worked and worked for the military on secret government projects. Like these were the only people who were seen as potentially valid within the, you know, the sphere of, you know, any kind of journalistic, you know, disclosure like. And it makes sense that the Robertson panel would their entire purpose was to discredit these people who had experiences they could not explain exactly. They could not put it in in a tightly wrapped box. Nope.

35:44 And you so you start ridiculing them, you start debunking them and you say this is our our goals going forward. And so that's just carried forward. I mean, that's just, it's only until recent. I mean, only recently have we started getting more reports of this and panels and things like where people are kind of coming more forward and less being less ridiculed, scared and scared to do it. Only now. Yes, well, I. Mean fuck. I mean it's 8 if 70 years later, yes. I mean fuck. And and so, so it's like it is a systematic clearly from what you're saying about the Rob Robertson panel, this is a systematic disinformation project. All they're trying to do is make these people seem idiotic. Yeah, that that they like have a one screw loose. And and you still see that happening in various capacities. It still happens.

36:45 With so it's like that really sets the tone for disclosure in the future. I really. Effed everything to this very day. Like what? What are as human beings, what we want? We want to have a decent reputation, especially if you've worked for so long. Yes. So, yes, your integrity and everything you've been worked so long for. And then you tell the truth and then people call you nuts. I mean, that's it's a that's a killer. Yeah. To yourself, your soul, yes. Yeah, what? What a great tactic. Idiots. That's disgusting. So another quote which I think everyone should hear, he says.

37:29 As a scientist, I must be mindful of the lessons of the past. All too often it has happened that matters of great value to science were overlooked or ignored because it did not fit the accepted outlook of the time. Oh my God. Yeah. That's like. That's it. That's 100% it. What was it? Oh, that we all, we thought that everything revolved around the Earth and not around the sun, right? All the planets, Sure. And that it's like God forbid you say that all the planets revolve revolved around the sun because then that means we're not the fucking center of our universe.

38:11 Exactly. We're not. By. The way. For sure we're not, but that was like. Yeah, that was it. Yeah, it was seen as a travesty. You're an idiot. Like you don't know what the hell you're. Talking about so anything that proved otherwise was. So there's a history of this, history of it. Happening. Exactly. That's the point. That's the point. So years passed by, he's becoming less and less a cynic. Don't we see that all the time though? All the time? What is? It age like kind of makes you a. Lot of more experience right? And as long as you're open minded and you accept truth for what you it is, then we all know we know this is true. So of course you're going to become less of a skeptic. Right.

39:04 Also, you're not trying to build your career anymore. Exactly. You're not trying to Exactly. The Air Force isn't going. Please debunk this. Yeah, yeah. You're not trying to climb up the ladder and get all of these alkalines anymore. So he's becoming less of a cynic, less of a debunker. He's realizing things more and more that a lot of this stuff is real and and plausible. So now he starts conducting his own independent research outside of. A scientist for the people. So he says I need to come up with some sort of a classification of things. So I'm going to come up with a close encounter classification.

39:46 That's what he he's like. This is how I'm going to start categorizing things. Because you've seen a lot of stuff, yeah. How do I classify it? And he was really among the first of the people that we know of to really start conducting analysis of stuff independently. Because this is, you know, fifties, right? There's just, this is all just starting to come to light, starting to come out there. Who knows, maybe they're just starting to visit. I mean, who knows, whatever. And so we're getting more and more artifacts, more proof, more. Of these encounters, right? And so he's starting to be able to get the things that he needs to investigate. So he's one of the first to be these independent investigators. Good.

40:35 Do you remember our episode about Travis Walton? Oh, I cannot forget it. Yeah. Do you Remember Me talking about a guy by the name of Philip Class? Oh. It's ringing a bell. Remind me? Philip class who I call fill the pill or clasp the ass. Right, right, right, right. Right, OK is a UFO debunker. Right. OK, yes, it's. All and he was all up in Travis's biz. Right. Yeah. All up in it. Yeah, he was. He was really OK. He was really honestly trying to to, you know, debunk everything you had to say.

41:16 Oh 100% absolutely everything and destroyed his life. Was a fucking crazy person. Right, right. Destroyed his life. Destroyed his life? Yes. Yes. The ass class. The ass. I mean, it makes me want to vomit. OK, so I don't like to give those idiots a lot of attention, but I will tell you that Joseph's most prolific public critics starts to become class. Interesting, this is the beginning of his criticisms. Huh. I mean, in fact, he starts calling Joseph out by name. I mean, that's how he's getting on his radar.

41:57 Who does he work for? Fill the pill or. Fill the pill. I don't himself, I think. I think it's just his mission in life. Gotcha, because he's just one of those people. He's a Karen. Yeah, he's a Karen. He's an alien, Karen. Yeah. So undeterred, Joseph continues to create and investigate. And he creates his classification system and it has 6 levels and they're arranged in the order of proximity. So number numero Uno is what he calls nocturnal lights.

42:38 And this is just lights in the sky. Like you can't explain like things that lights in the sky that are lights in the sky, nocturnal lights, that's what he calls it #2 are daylight discs. And these are UFOs that are seen in the daytime, generally having disc or Oval shape. OK. His third level was called Radar Visual. Ah, OK, so if the if something catches it. Yep. So UFO reports that have a radar confirmation is what these are. These are supposed to try to offer harder evidence that the objects are real. Although radar propaganda can be occasionally discredited due to whatever atmospheric anomaly or whatever, but. It's an operator like an.

43:33 Operator, Yeah, yeah #4 is close encounter of the first kind, which is CE1. And this is visual sightings of an unidentified flying object seemingly less than 500 feet away that show an appreciable angular extension and considerable detail. Like it can't just be a dust orb. Like it has to be some detail to it. Like, you know that it's not an alien, it's like a flying saucer. Yeah, it's not a plane in the distance that you just can't recognize. It's.

44:13 Like 100 feet away right there kind of thing. Yeah. OK. Then there's close Encounters of the Second Kind or CE2. OK. This is a UFO event in which a physical effect is alleged. This can be interference in a functioning of a vehicle or electronic device. It could be animals reacting. It could be a psychological effect such as paralysis or heat or discomfort in the witness. It could be some physical trace, like impressions in the ground, scorches or other affected vegetation, A chemical trace, radiation trace, Right. Yeah.

44:59 OK. Those are the second kind. OK. Then we get close encounters of the third kind, which is CE3. These are UFO encounters in which an animated entity is present, Your favorite kind. And these include humanoids, robots. His word? Not always. Interesting, he says. Robots. And humans who seem to be occupants or pilots of an object. Wait, what?

45:41 What? Yeah, OK. When did he, when did he start this? When was this that he started this classification? Started in the 50s. Are you fucking kidding me? Are you kidding me? I am like, like, my mind is blown right now, OK, Because he mentions, he mentions, OK, it could be like a little Gray alien, you know, big old eyeballs, you know, green or Gray or whatever. Doesn't really look human, but humanoid kind of thing. He says. Robots. Interesting. Word which people have thought the potentially Grays are robots or like the smaller Grays are robots. But in the 50s, weren't robots, I think, like yes, yes, yes, yes.

46:28 Yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. They definitely were. They definitely were. So is that? Where does it get the word? I'll give you that. Oh, I'm gonna meet. Oh, robots. Those are scamming. What was it the Jetsons with? Rosie, Rosie. Yeah, Rosie was great. Oh, Will Robinson. Will Robinson Danger Robinson? Danger. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. These things, these things had come out. What was the original 1950s movie with the where the the big robot that comes Keanu Reeves redid the movie. Oh, Keanu Rios. Yes, and he was an alien and it was the big robots that just came down and he was like really huge and he had the big laser eye.

47:13 Everyone's going to like. They're screaming at the radio right now. I know. Yes. Well, so that movie that he did was like a 1950s movie or something, I think. So these things were known. So these things were so, you know, we've always said fiction is based in reality in at some level of reality. So maybe he got robots from this, right? Because this is like the thing in the 50s, like robots were like the the the future, right? So maybe that was where he got the word yes, but. But also humans. But also humans, yes. OK, so here's another my brain. Like I said, my brain's fucking exploding right now because. Because I didn't know what these close encounters like were, what the classification was.

48:01 They're also saying potentially these things that we're seeing, these beings that we're seeing, could be future humans. Humans who seem to be occupants or pilots of an object. Yeah. So whether it's us currently and it's like, you know, some kind of government craft that like whatever has been re engineered, whatever the case may be, it could be that what if it is us from the future and he knew that. Exactly because we have said that like J Rod and others really are, have our DNA. Yes, we should, but. From the future. Yeah, yeah, uh huh. OK, maybe, yes, 'cause he was investigating this stuff, maybe he had access, maybe he saw this as one of his investigation things and he's like, OK, well, this is going to be part of my category.

48:55 Yeah. You're not going to just like create a classification if you don't have evidence to support it. So this is stuff he's classifying this. Based on what he knows. Based on what? All of the information that he knows. Right. Yeah, it's crazy. Sorry, I freaked out on the third kind. That's OK. Because it's going to get a little weirder. Oh, beautiful, great, 'cause you know he. Stops there. OK, he stops. That's the. Top of the list the. Top of his list. OK, but if you think about it, think about this for a second, Yeah. Where does Travis fit in that? What which? Which one does he get? He gets third kind for sure because he had. Encounters with an animated entity, yes. Encounters with an animated entity, yes. OK, so yes, it's the third, but then yes, it's true. But it kind of goes beyond that, honestly. Right, it really does.

49:48 But he didn't remember more than the encounter. Well, when Travis Walton was, you know, when he was found, initially, he didn't remember anything. No, he did not. So there, maybe he had like close encounter of the first kind because he remembers like a light or something. Remember. But then he like. But what happens when you? OK, well, OK, keep the thought. Keep the. Thought yeah, it's here. OK, so UFO researcher by the name of Ted Blocher. Blocher, BLOECHER Blocher, Blocker Blocker Blocher. Sorry dude. Sorry dude. He proposed 6 subtypes.

50:32 How beautiful. For the close encounters of the third kind, because he thought there needed to be a little more detail right in the third because it seemed kind of black and white to him. OK, so subtypes for close encounters of the third kind are a board. An entity is observed inside of a UFO. Oh yeah, OK. Close An entity is observed near a UFO, but not going in or out of it. Both an entity is observed inside and outside of the UFO.

51:15 Direct an entity is observed. No UFOs are seen by the observer, but the UFO activity has been reported in the area at about the same time. Excluded. An entity is observed, but no UFOs are seen and no UFO activity has been reported in the area At the time and frequency. No entity or UFOs are observed, but the subject experiences some sort of intelligent communication. Oh, like a radio frequency? Sure. Or yeah, or mind control.

51:56 Mind control or yeah, telepathic, whatever. So now we have 6.123456, OK. Or I mean, UFO close encounters 3 level 6 closing encounter 3.123456 yes. OK. So in a 1985 interview, when asked what caused his change of opinion and his his, yeah, his change of opinion as a scientist, he said two things really. One was the completely negative and unyielding attitude of the Air Force. Sure. They wouldn't give UFOs a chance of existing even if they were flying up and down the street in broad daylight. Everything had to have an explanation. I began to resent that, even though I basically felt the same way, because I still thought they weren't going about it the right way.

52:57 You can't assume that everything is black no matter what. Secondly, the caliber of the witnesses began to trouble me. Quite a few instances were reported by military pilots and I knew them to be fairly very well trained. So this is when I first began to think that, well, maybe there is something to all of this because now, like you were saying before, it's not just Mary Jo Sue in the trailer park after she was caught, you know, smoking a pipe. Right. It was literally a pilot.

53:38 Who's saying I don't know what the hell this is and it's flying right next to me and I'm interacting with it. So, yeah, I mean, it makes sense that stories like Travis Walton's would come out and it would be a huge, It would be the information that we're kind of looking for where, you know, he goes aboard a spaceship or some kind of ship, some kind of thing, and has this experience. And the government allows for this to be put out because he's some lumberjack in the middle of BFE, Arizona and doesn't have any kind of, like, knowledge of how, you know, aircraft works within space or time or whatever. Of course they're going to let that happen. Of course you're going to suppress the information. That is terrifying because and and suppress things that are counter to the belief in the system that you currently have and the powers that be who have this different disinformation. He's straight up saying, yeah, this is this is exactly what's been happening.

54:47 This is what's been happening. And I was sick of it because I was a part of the problem. Exactly. Yep, that's exactly it. He starts to realize that. And that's that's when he too he starts lamenting about the Robertson panel. Where he was discrediting everything like. Oh shit. He was part of it. Yeah. So I I think because of his limited mind, a bit of his tunnel vision and his skepticism, I don't think he can consider going higher than close Encounters of the Third Kind. I don't even think that was in his thought.

55:28 Right. Because after his death in 96, his colleague Jacques Valet. Oh. He creates two more steps. There's two more classifications after it. He's like, no, no, no, it doesn't stop at three girl. Yes, there's a there is a four and I thought so close encounter of the fourth kind is a UFO event in which a human is abducted by a UFO or its occupants. Hi Travis. Hey, girl. Travis. Close encounters of a fifth kind is where an alien abductee receives some manner of physical effect from their close encounter, typically either injury or a healing.

56:16 Hello Travis. He got all the way up to five girl. Oh wow. Because remember, he was on a table. Yes, and he got. Probed. He got probed, girl got probed. Poor girl, she just wanted. Why couldn't they have like given him? They could have been like, Travis, we're going to make your Dick bigger. We're gonna make sure you're never going to bald. We're gonna what you're gonna always have. These really great experiments on you, yeah. Yeah, rather than being like. No, we're gonna put this thing on your chest and probe you. We're gonna probe you and wasn't. Opposite and not even know what we're gonna probe you for honestly. Well, and then it's like, it's like, you're gonna remember this and it's gonna feel like torture. It's going to feel like torture.

57:00 It's going to feel like you're you're tortured. And that's. That is not a singular event, by the way. No. We've heard this before. And women talk about like having well and like up there. Well, of course. Well, of course you're gonna be up there. Hoo ha. Well, women and men, yeah, same thing because they, yeah, they're like, I saw my alien baby, which I know it sounds so crazy. National Enquirer. Yeah, yeah. But no, they say that they. Gave me a picture of my alien baby. I got to hold my alien baby and it was a hybrid that looks like a Gray but had my curly hair. You know, could you imagine what that look like would be so fucking weird. But but it's like, you know, yeah, he had he didn't have what's interesting with that CE 5, which is what? The physical, It's the physical.

57:49 Yeah, the abductee who had some physical either injury or healing. Well, what the fuck? Why did Travis get no healing? And, and just like the injury, you know, well, maybe, maybe there was some kind of healing. Who fucking knows? Who knows? Yeah, who knows? Yeah. Maybe they gave him some, like, bad thing and then they healed it. I mean, who knows? Who knows what they did? Who knows? I have no idea. So Jacques Valet is like he is like he's a head honcho in the, you know, UAPUFO world. Great. He's great. Crazy. Love it. Well, he. Gave us two extra classifications, which makes sense to me.

58:30 It makes sense because you have all these stories, so. Because now we know more. Right, and we can share information so much easier, right? Like it's not just like hopefully the you know, the newspaper publishes my story and you know, someone else gets a hold of it. It's you know, or by Morse code. It's like it's not you're not sharing letters. It's now we can record videos and post them on to whatever social media app you want to you know and share your. Story Steven Spielberg paid Joseph I think like 100 bucks to use the term close Encounters of the Third guy. Just 100. Yeah, it was like. Nothing. I don't know. It was 100. I don't remember what it was. It wasn't. It was nothing. It was nothing. It was not enough, not.

59:11 It needed to be a lot. Yeah, No, it was like nothing. He was like, can I use that term? Sure. Yeah, sure you can. I would be like, okay, Stevie, I also get a percentage of whatever this box office. So now they can do close Encounters of the Sixth kind. Let's have a. Let's see one of those. OK, where's Steven Spielberg? Because he's really into aliens. Yeah, he needs to do a close Encounters of the Third. He's got sequels, bitch. Close Encounters of the Fourth kind and the Fifth Kind. OK, so he. Get on it, girl. OK, I heard somewhere through the Grapevine that they might be working on something like either it's a redo or it's a new adaptation of. Close.

59:51 Well, you can use the two new levels. Exactly, and you can also and. Take it a little further. You take take it further and then provide through, you know, a great storyline and, you know, beautiful. Whatever you're gonna do, Steven Spielberg. But it's like, you know, I don't fucking know. I'm just here with a tin foil hat on. This is what you should do, bitch. But. But honestly, it's like why not try to explain these and then try to get more information? Oh, but the cut, that's what they're doing with the Bluebeam project. That's right. Maybe they're building? Those that's right because. For that purpose. We did use like in in the Bluebeam project Bluebeam like episode we talked about how yes like Hollywood is being used by the government to slowly seep.

1:00:33 In these ideas, yeah, accept and adapt to these concepts. And and accept and adapt to an external force putting control on us, you know? So that when it happens. We're OK with it and we've seen, we've seen something like this happen before. So it's like, Oh yeah, I don't know, there are alien overlords that are going to be fine or are, or, you know, exactly what they said. Our, you know, world one world government is going to be fine. It'll be fine. But it's so it's interesting because I've heard the close of Encounters in a movie that the government actually talked to Steven Spielberg as he was writing this story and they're like, where'd you get your information from? Do this and do that.

1:01:22 Maybe don't do this. Don't do that. Or where did you get your information from? Gotcha. Like men in black. Like, well, where did he, I wonder? We just make it up. No, because like we said, all fiction is based on some level of truth. I mean, if he's AUF, if he's like a. Research someone, someone told him. And if he's like super into this topic like we are, we could probably write a fucking storyline like a script for this and like have, you know, it's not. Oh my God, let's write close Encounters of the Fourth Kind. No. Should we jump to the no? We'd have to start with the 4th. I think the 4th. 5th yes cuz then the 5th like what? A little bit further. What if you did the 6th and then like? Went back. There is no sixth kind. Or I mean, OK. Yeah, 5th and then 4th. 5th and then 4th and then showed all of I meant all of the six types within. Oh yeah, yeah.

1:02:11 The third time. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. We'll have a, We'll have a, what is it GoFundMe account or something? It's a crowdfund to like making this movie happen. Subscribe now. Subscribe now to this. I mean, it just goes to show Kevin, this has been happening forever. Exactly. And it's clearly been happening since the 1940s. We keep all of our episodes, as we've always said, just always connect, which is fascinating to me. Like we don't even intend for this to happen, but all of our episodes end up connecting somehow, which just goes to show there again, some there's something here.

1:02:54 There's something here and there's like a high, they call it high strangeness, where this like phenomena of the unknown does connect to a lot of things, a lot of things in in this world, in this bizarre world. If we're looking at the bizarre, all of it is connected. Yep. OK, good. Well, so now you all know what that means. Hopefully it doesn't happen to you it. Doesn't happen to you, although I'm I have to say. What? I don't think I would be upset if I had a close encounter of the fourth kind, just not the 5th.

1:03:37 I don't want to be hurt, are harmed or injured. Well, if it's going to be the 4th, then it's gonna be. The 5th Let's be honest. An alien does not abduct you and say, okay, bye, that's yeah, see ya, okay. We just wanted to show you the inside of our ship. Our ship. Yeah, yeah, look how cool it is. Bye. You know, no, they're gonna be fucking probing your ass. They're gonna be probing your ass, probing your eyeballs, probing like they are making your babies. You're gonna be holding it with your, with your blonde hair. It's gonna have the glasses on and look like half fucking Gray alien. Hilarious. So don't put it out there. OK. Well, thank you so much for today's. Episode that was.

1:04:18 Yeah. You're welcome. Great. Yeah, good. Thanks. Well, we'll see you in a week or two. Yes. OK. See you then. See. You then bye.