Bad Karma: Death by Academic Institution

0:00 Hello, bizarre story. Junkies if you're listening right now you are tuned into the bizarre AF where we talked about the strange, the Absurd, the unknown and all things bizarre as fuck. I am Alicia your host for today's episode and like always we ask that you keep an open mind a skeptical ear but keep on listening to the facts. As we take you on our newest Journey, Bad Karma, death by academic Institution. Ahoy Ahoy.

1:01 How are you my little co-host with the most? Kevin angered cared? Good, good. How are you doing? I'm good. You know, it's getting a little chillier here. I love and the bizarre. Those. Yeah. They're my faves. I know I love that. That sweater that you're wearing the cable-knit moment. We love it a asymmetric. Yes. - oh, I love a symmetrical. Yes. You're doing good ready for today. I'm ready. I'm excited. Yeah, I don't know what we're talking about, and I want to dive into some nuts Nest. Okay, cool. This is it's pretty nuts. Okay, so I think I'm actually going to start out maybe with with a little quote.

1:45 Okay? And it's actually it's by the person that we are covering today. Who transports? The quote is information is power but like all power, there are those who want to keep it for themselves. Hmm, this is true. Say true. Okay so you know we often hear about those like Tech Geniuses who you know, change how we kind of interact with technology who are a few that come to your mind Kevin jobs, Steve Jobs, agreed, yep, my Tesla boo, you're absolutely Lon mask, he's crazy as fuck, he is crazy as fuck. That's like a different way of thinking of things right?

2:27 Yeah. I know there are others. I don't know if Albert Einstein was crazy. I feel like he was crazy. He was super smart. Very, very intelligent. Kind of changes the way that we see things. So smart, just like, super smart correlate to Wacky personal like you don't know how to behave around people, kind of person. That's a great question. I mean, I'd say that a lot of the folks that we knew in the past like for instance Tesla Nikola Tesla, which we would have will have to do an episode in the neutron him. Yeah. You know you could. Say that he was potentially on the spectrum of autism. Yeah. Oh. So was that, maybe that's what it is. That could be part of it. You have a, your brain, just kind of fires, ours differently. Yeah, different way.

3:08 Yeah. You know, when I'm thinking about like some of the tech Geniuses and stuff I think of like Steve Wozniak because another one Bill Gates. Yes, right. Yeah, you know, dudes for like ultimately really sweet smart and are able to, like, kind of organized intelligent people, which I would say, maybe Steve Jobs was really good at organizing until Yeah, yeah, and they have like companies, they started their parents basements garages and general, don't really get laid until they've been billionaires, right? Southern right to come here suddenly cute. Oh my God. Wait, how much money do you have? Yes, you're down. So, you know we're talking about Aaron Swartz and honestly, Aaron Swartz was no difference in intelligence. No different in intelligence.

3:54 He was born north of Chicago and from a younger age, who really Lloyd, you know, learning and seeking knowledge. And, you know, I think a great way to kind of explain him or to talk about him, is he was very principled. He and his family, they're incredibly principal people. They believed they had really strong beliefs, and, and ultimately, you know, this principle nature came up a lot and are did swartz's life. So, you know, he was, he's around my age, 1986 was when he was born and, you know, I'm talking about How much he loved learning. And one of the topics that he really threw himself into was computers. He loved studying the culture around it, because when I was younger, like, you know, you could, you could learn coding and it was very, very simple.

4:42 You could learn the internet, you know, everything I feel, I'll be honest, I kind of feel like I'm a little added depth and talking about computers with. Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of like languages. I love it. I love it. I'm gonna ask you some questions. So, okay. I will do my best. Yeah Kevin you are you are a tech person. You can see computer technology. Yeah well speak different link computer languages you know them. Yeah. Yeah I do not I'm like what's like speaking. It's like speaking in foreign language it's so is same thing. Like I speak French I don't speak any languages. I can write Koko gramming languages. Yes yes I can't think that's the same kind of thing like I do. Dave, Dave can write like programming languages. I cannot know for him, no way.

5:32 But I feel like when you're passionate about it, you you know you really kind of go deep into the deep end with, you know, these like that's just it. If your passion about anything you will. Yes, you'll dive into it because you love it because you love it and maybe you're a little obsessive. And I think the Aaron Swartz was very obsessive about these things. Like he was one of those people who may be potentially, I don't know. I don't think he was diagnosed as being on the, on the Spectrum but it could have been because he was All about it, like coding and like getting into the nitty-gritty gritty so much. So to the, you know, he was we're going to flash forward to Aaron and 1990 he was it was 12 years old and while the rest of us are freaking out and 99.9 thinking, oh my God, the world's gonna end millenniums happening.

6:17 I was doing it so that I do not to digress, please, don't they? So work. Had some when I was working with the time, this whole 1999 thing was With a huge thing. And so moving over to 2000 because of the time, clocks the clocks, none of the clocks were generated, so it would switch over to 2000. It was all right in the 1900s. That's right. Like is the world going to add that while they and they weren't sure if computers were going to flip over. So like when it turns 2000, like our computers going to break like did week I count for that. And so the company that I was working with actually hadn't, I was so I was at a New Year's Eve.

6:57 Party. Okay, they had. So we had prepared for this for like years insurance, right was a huge deal, they had me going into work, I had to get to work at by 11:00 that night so that when I switched over like we were all there like just to make sure nothing happens to like do something. I don't know what we were supposed to do like in case like ship failed, right? We had to fix it so it wasn't, it was an event, it was an actual event. Like, from my perspective, I was 12 years old when I did it or when I Experienced it. So I went to we went to just get water because I lived in Arizona and the water, the tap water in Arizona is awful. So you have to go and go to like water stores to buy like actual water. That's like, that's okay to drink. So I was there and we didn't realize oh it's December 31st. There was a huge line because people thought the end times were coming and they were lined out the W. They were trying to bring as much water into their house because you know as humans we need water. So that was my interaction with with 1999 to 2000 so amazing, you know.

8:05 Aaron's also, you know, just about he's a year older than me. So just about my age that at that time. So he while the rest the world like freaking out thinking the world's going to end stockpiling water and food as the Millennium approach, this dude creates a website called the info Network and ultimately it was a user-generated encyclopedia, it's kind of like Wikipedia, okay. And the Guy ends up actually winning Awards. This 12 year old wins Awards wow which puts them on the map for coding and about two years later, he actually becomes a part of this group. The RSS group not to put you on the spot. But you know what RSS is is that like the the data feeds like an RSS feed.

8:49 Yes. Yeah. So an RSS RSS feed is. It's a web feed that actually allows the users and applications to access updates and to websites in. Standardized like computer readable format, right? We use RSS for our podcast. So that's how we get distributed to all of the suppliers, an RSS feed. Okay. So very relevant, very relevant. Okay, we use it today, dude. I had no idea. I'm like looking at this I'm like, what the fuck is our has a screw so it's like looking it up and yeah he's a twelve-year-old. It's kind of like a genius as far as as far as early groups. So He he's like on these huge panels with, you know, men in their 50s, who are Parts, like, who are in these RSS groups like really Cutting Edge at that time. And talking about the, the potential. That's like that RSS could really do in the internet. Like, when were talking about 1999 worth talking about like those really shitty website, stupid likes really stupid, you still had Ask Jeeves like Google really Even a thing, they look sad.

9:59 Um, MapQuest Google like Google Maps was not a thing. It was MapQuest. Yeah. Like these things were, it wasn't nearly as verbose as it is today. So I'm sure this RSS group, you know? They they really actually this group creates the first iteration of an RSS web application, amazing, which is what we use. We use it. Yeah. And that's really a huge deal that, you know, you kind of have a better idea, maybe if your legs exciting. I mean, that's like crazy. That's what that's that is like, Frontier Forefront with can be like, yeah, stuff. It's really. It really is like a wild. Sure. It's seeing the future seeing what what options are available and saying, hey look we can do this, we're going to create this and maybe it's not going to be able to be used in the right intended to be used.

10:47 But like years later, it's going to be have somebody listening to her like creating a podcast. Yep, distribute and distributing it you as RSS feeds? Yes. So You know, this dude, he's super, super smart believes. Like really has a principled, like, thought process up behind like provide, like not seeking lot knowledge, and not hiding Knowledge from other people. Like, despite like, you know, economic background, like, if you want to learn, you should be able to learn and it's very, you know, very apparent as far as his, you know, his going through RSS like this RSS group and like being, he was really ahead of that. So, He goes to an Ivy League College, it's actually Stanford and he really actually isn't a fan of it.

11:34 He goes into he's like you know what board, because he's so smart. That's that's the bottom line is, he's incredibly bored and he really actually seen more of a loner like he thinks that he's going to go into this experience where everyone can be seeking knowledge and like trying to like figure shit out and like the stuff that you're going to study is stuff that you're really genuinely interested in. Oh guess what? That's not actually the case. It's really right now working. And so right? He was kind of turned off by that idea. He didn't really like going to school today, to kind of like rub elbows with other, you know, intelligent people or well-bred people, which is really those ivy league folks. So, you know, he's seen more of a loner, just like a lot of programming guys at that time were and of course, you know, this really is the case, because how do you the fuck do you get good at programming? Not by having an active social?

12:27 Social life. Totally, you do if I like being totally cool with sitting in front of a computer and literally typing in letters and shit and code, like sitting in a corner and coding and being all isolated and for isolated. Yeah. That's, you know, I think that that is a definite part of it. So we're going to we're going to fast-forward to ultimately what becomes Reddit? So essentially are Well, known in many Tech circles for being a gifted coder. And through a Founders group actually called the Y combinator firm. He actually connects the startup called infogami.

13:10 Now infogami is an information management system that allows for a visually interesting websites. So instead of having all of your information, like on a black background, and it's only text, like, you can insert pictures and makes it, it's clickable like things that you actually want it. Interact with. So he he's like hey look this is really what I want to do. I'm going to work and do this and drop out of college. So he drops out of Stanford and he works full-time for the startup in 2005. So that's what he's doing in. 2005, 2005 for me I was graduating high school and trying to figure out who the fuck I was like.

13:52 Oh my God like figure out like ways for people to gain more knowledge. Like, ya know, I wasn't I was like, do I like like who which boys do I like and you know like let me drink some Mad Dog 40 40, it's definitely not not coding shit so he's working full-time at the startup and ultimately he didn't like the python code that was being used infogami. So I you know, if I thought I do not know it but I have I have progressed. I went God's so nerdy. Yeah, let's hear it. I went I went to computer. You are a computer Camp. Oh my God.

14:34 Kevin and we had to program different languages and it's like some of them were like these little 55, B, quarter discs, and then we have the 12 inch discs and the Roman floppies. And we had to do all kind Cobalt and Python and program every so geeky. It's so cool geeky when was this, when was this computer Camp, honestly, you have to tell us was around. 2005, was it before just before leaving for 2005. Okay, I was in high school in high school. So this is like late 80s. Oh my God. So you're really cutting out. Do you know everything? I was so Tito into computers when I was yeah. When I was because computers were just starting to become like a mainstream thing. Like they were starting to introduce them into houses homes and personal computers and so late. Yeah, late 80s.

15:25 I was trying to be a ahead of the game and I begged my father for a computer and yeah. She ended up buying one. I know he couldn't afford it. I know he couldn't fucking afford it. He bought me one, anyway. He's like he's like, hey, I know that you're interested in this. Yeah, I want you to do. What's right? Oh, that's so sweet. Yes, I was. I've been in the computer since I could think computers. You're you're you're like an Aaron Swartz. Love it. Yeah. No I don't know. Mama Spectrum but not no no but like you enjoy it he was maybe obsessive. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those guys I have I bow down to those kind of guys because they, I mean, they are in, they get it, they're Geniuses Geniuses.

16:13 And they can think way ahead beyond what anybody thinks of. At this very moment, they can just not necessarily predicting the future but they know what people are going to need or want or they can think way ahead of all of yes, it's insane. I don't know what any of these fucking acronyms or I think Kevin you probably should have been doing this episode. Thank you. So ultimately, you know, he had said he dropped out of Stanford, he goes to infogami, he didn't like the python code that they were actually using. He's like, yeah, this is bullshit, there's a better way to do that because you could write his own code.

16:54 So he created web pie which was web page was the web application framework for in. Kogami at that time, that he actually created he created himself. So in early fall of 2005, he actually connects with another that Founders group y combinator startup. They you might know this startup. It's Reddit essential on my God so he connects with them as he's working for infogami because they're both part of that. Same Founders like group that found both of them infogami and read it. And I'll be honest, like I kind of feel like I've said this already that I'm out of my depth, but this kind of this talk makes me a little thirsty and it's not because I'm actually interested in like, and do these Tech dudes. It's really because I need to fuck and have a drink before I cannot, oh my God over my head and my pay grade. So ultimately, you know, Aaron, you know, joins with the Reddit folks, to rewrite, its lisp code. Database like code, code base, and so use Python and web pie. And although it's successful info gummies, Tech ultimately was abandoned so the co-founders grew or the founders group actually suggest that he and like Reddit and info go me kind of merge, okay?

18:21 And when they do that because it like Reddit and infocomm are both using this web pie like you know, application they make Aaron a co-founder of Reddit. Okay? So he is technically one of the cofounders of Wow, in the very beginning, I know like one of the dudes is like dating Serena Williams or married to Serena Williams right now. Yeah wow. Yeah. I mean, like, how cool is that? Like that dude definitely fucking struck gold. Oh well GERD and she's amazing. Wow. So do you actually use Reddit? So I have, I'm not a I'm not a loser although I have like, when I mean As with probably 90% of the population, guy mean.

19:06 Yeah. Google is my bitch. Yes. And so, you know, many times when I'm searching for something red, it's probably the one of the top 10 things that comes up many times. Yes. So I have been to read it. You know, it always asks you if you want to do the app or the browser I always say in that browser Hauser's, I just want to download the app but I have found many useful things in. Reddit, I love right up. I personally use it all the time and I'm active in a couple of subreddits. I'm not gonna tell you, you can find anything. Like even it's actually one of the rep website that I go to like if I'm traveling or if I don't see literally go in.

19:46 I'll search for settle into Reddit, I'll search within read it because if there is anything that like people will vouch for say like those overrated or there's a lot of trolls up, it's ready. Like, you know, if you go onto something like golly, like open table or what is the other like Yelp or something like that for for restaurant ideas, never got. You can't trust a lot of those because the a lot of like the going reviews and yeah their Bots or they've been bought Bo ught like they've been paid for. Yeah, so you can't count on anything so if you're, you know, if you're looking for something like Travel places in Germany, which I'm going to Germany, you know, this you do read it, I do read it.

20:29 Yeah, I do read it. I'll look real people kind of stuff, real people like and I'll actually I'm active. The one that I will talk about is I'm active on the Denver subreddit. So if people have questions about like things to do while they're in Denver I've commented it's been like hey if you're in this place you're seeing an avalanche game like here are some spots that you should go check out. Like most people ask questions and then real people will actually respond to him so I'm act, I love Reddit. Okay, but I understand, I understand how people would like it or not, like it's kind of like a message board system. I love it. No. Again, I'd have never seeked it out, but I know that there's, I found useful information, great information. So, ultimately at that time, like, in 2006, it's incredibly successful, right?

21:15 It really takes off and is purchased by condé Nast, do you know? Countenance? No, well, they own wired them. Kazim. Oh and Vogue. Wow. Oh my God. And they do Conde Nast Traveler. Like they had they own a ton of stuff. Those are some things that you might hear about. So what do you think happens when a company like Conde Nast purchases read it. I mean you did what happens when I think of company like Conde Nast purchases Reddit, which are in is now co-founder of Of 0 and a person.

21:56 Like Aaron, what do? What does he do? Oh, he wants probably like the man, right? Like the man. He's like fuck that. Yeah. You know what I was I was kind of thinking about he's like, well, one, he's like, I'm not into like The Devil Wears Prada and, you know, and he kind of scrams that office kind of office life. But while I was like reading about, you know, the purchase of Contour, count cotton, as purchasing Reddit, I kept on, thinking of like Miranda, Lee did you see the devil is proud? All my gosh times. The love it. Oh God. So I kept on imagining them like being in the same elevator and Aaron like Swartz being like who the fuck is? This isn't like yeah.

22:36 Miranda Priestly like you know, in the only elevator waiting for her fucking lot are her Americana or whatever. Like you're not wearing the right shoes. You know what he's like? I don't give a fuck exactly like what does your brain look like? She's like, it doesn't look good. I don't. Care what, who anything else? That's, you know, I just think of like those two coming into each other like and it just would Polar Opposites super polar opposite. Yeah. So ultimately Aaron finds finds a passion that he can fund because he, with the acquisition Conde Nast purchases, it, he gets a buyout, right?

23:17 He's out. So he's way, he's part of Reddit, he's part of, right? He was one of the co-founders at this point and then this other company. Rabbis yes Conde Nast purchases read it. They found out. He's out. He's like well do you think he's at? He's never gonna just don't want to be part of that. No way. You should arrogance. Yeah, Hugh kind of wants to be free and yeah, of course. That's so like because he's like this genius programmers. Yes. You're not going to be controlled by the man. Exactly. I want freedom I want to be able to do what I want to do. I want to do some cool shit and you're never going to do that under a corporation. So he pieces out And ultimately, what we find is that he be can begins to actually go into politics and activism because that's really where his passion is, right? Like allowing like shit to be free, like like why and his family, like I said, before are very principled. So, so his his film with are all passionate the principal people and remember that quote at the beginning. Mmm information is power.

24:22 But like all power, there are those Those who want to keep it sells, huh? That's how he really lived life and he wanted transparency with officials in power. So whether that was government politicians Etc. He thought transparency is really the way that we could move forward. It's kind of like a Star Trek like positive thought like we all if we all are working together and trying to seek out knowledge then the world's going to work and I love that thought process, that's more. So like I'm very like Of the glass is half full kind of optimistic person, but he actually believed in the so strongly, he created this website and you may have heard of the heard of it. It's no longer working today to not same iteration, but it's called Watchdog dotnet.

25:10 I think I have heard of Watchdog. Yes. Yeah. You probably have a lot of us have heard of it and it really just Aggregates data about politicians and it doesn't. So does it does it visually? So it's not like, oh man, This is, you know, it wasn't there. So, there's some celebrities that I thought was, oh my god there, I think there was a celebrity that kind of backed Watchdog. Yes, I'm sure that there was because he was all about, like, providing transparency and allowing the American people to make good to make an informed decision about, who were electing into office. So he actually he's Captain America. Oh, shoot.

25:54 Chris Evans. Yes, I think I think that I feel I'm you guys can tell me if I'm wrong. Yes. I feel like he was somehow involved in that. Oh my God, that'd be amazing. Chris Evans. Yeah, plus he's hot. Oh my God. Yes, you can. You can talk to us all day long about Watchdog dotnet. Well, take it. Okay, so he actually wrote the gorilla. The Open Access Manifesto which he actually he said, quote the world's the world's entire scientific Heritage is increasingly being digitalized and locked up by a handful of private corporations.

26:41 The Open Access movement. It has fought to valiantly ensure that scientists do not sign their copyrights away. But instead ensure that their work is published on the internet under terms that allow anyone to access it. Mmm, which as you can see like the dude, really believes that books and scholarly journals and other sources of information should be readily available to anyone, who wants to learn. It doesn't matter who you are whether or not you can afford it. Like anyone should be able to seek out this knowledge, we're in a place you know with our our culture in general where we can seek out knowledge. Very Star Trek very optimistic, I dig it but But he thinks that like, people should be able to learn without a pay wall involved, right? So, have you ever heard of like Pacer the? It's an actual.

27:34 It's a database. No, master database. No, I uh, so actually stands for the public access to court. Electronic records. Oh, ultimately it stores federal court records. That are handled by the the United States Administration office. And in 2008, Aaron sees that the public records are behind a pay wall. So, All of these acts, like these public records, that should be public available to all people are behind a pay wall and, and he's not a fan of it. And so he downloads 2.7 million documents and publishes these documents on wonder how he got it for free.

28:14 If it's ba if it's behind some sort of lock thing, I when I wonder how he got it, what? Cause he's fucking smart. He's intelligent and has had to do it and he knows how to kind of like fuck with us. Seems like so, huh. So he's like this shit needs to be. It needs to be public and the world taxpayers already paying for it. Yeah, right. Like we as taxpayers. This is open. This is information. We should have but the government is charging for because how much of the charging for it For our page. How much does the government charging for it? Is it supposed to be free though? Right? It should be from like information assets. Read it should be. Oh my God, what are they charging eight cents a page, a page? And these are federal like, like court documents that we should have a sender's. Yes.

28:58 Binders and binders, binders. And binders of women have binders of court documents. Yes. So it's eight cents a page. He released about 1.7 million dollars. Holy worth a pages. Shysters. Yeah, I was supposed to be free. Especially, I mean, technically, yes, it should be free under that. Hope public under the whole, what is that in public information? Freedom of Information Act or whatever the yes is? Yes. Yeah, it should be free. It was not and so he stupid government. I know, so he was like, fuck this. Fuck the government, which I'm so down, I'm like, I I love an ant. Well no, I do love an anarchist.

29:46 I love like punk, rock, all that kind of stuff. I love that because there's a lot of passion and optimism, so yeah, there's optimism behind that. Yeah. Like, you know, we as people are, we don't mean harm, we really want to do good. And that's what Aaron believed in. So he released one point seven million dollars worth of pages, it caught the attention, of course of government officials and you would think they would have had an issue with it, right? Well, yeah, because they were a no one paid eight cents a page, right? We're losing money. Losing money. Yes. Also let someone like Aaron's, like, hey motherfuckers like yeah, I'm getting on myself, I spit. Yeah, I'm getting on my soapbox to say, look, this is for this should be free.

30:32 The government shouldn't be making money off of US service. That taxpayers are essentially paying for its public at ought to be public knowledge. So actually a started grilling gaining nor Aya T so people are like oh he's like stealing all this, all these, you know, government documents, making them public him. Public. So there was like a Grassroots Castlevania. Do I care? This is like I should care about this or was it like hey, this is stuff that they've kind of been hiding. So like we need to figure out what it is or I think that it's more like, this is stuff that should be available to the American public. It is clearly behind a pay wall. There's no reason.

31:15 It should be like we are paying taxes for it, so what the fuck like like you. Let's make this available for the The Common People, okay? So other people start saying yeah, Aaron's fucking right, he's right. And he downloads would points like like so many millions of pages like dot 1.7 million dollars worth, right of these Pages. Yes, it's published. People are people like, oh my God, he's like creating this. It's like his Grassroots campaign where other people are like, lip latching on the saying, yeah. He's right. We should. We should have all this information public. So, because I still part of Reddit, at this time, Well, he still co-founder he still looked over the co-founder ready. Okay. So and people know about him because like I said, he's a tech genius, but he's also very principled guy. So he's very outspoken about the things that he believes in. This is one of them.

32:03 So other people are, they're saying, hey, look, go create a free account because you can do that for a week and you can like, download free account, we're on the Pacer website. So on this Pacer, hmm, L, which is where he got it. So he got it on ya, Pacers led the database to get it from Pacer. Yes. But he didn't pay, the a sense. Know, how did he get around that? Well, we'll get into it on the phone. The bigger one. I'll talk to you a little bit more about like the how exactly he did it. Okay. Okay, but yeah he did some people go the website. Yeah people like hey they're like hey download create a free account for a week. You have a free account download as many articles as you can, okay, send them to us.

32:49 Okay, so we're going to create this like online database, that's actually free stuff, right? Which is what people should have already, right? You know, because we're already taxpayers, we're already paying for all this, right? The government just making extra money, so fuck that. Got it right. So they incur, he actually encourage people to go to a public library creating count with Pacer and then give them free access to the docks for a trial period and send the documents to a free open source site. So you know that open-source. Sure people did it and the FBI looked into it and actually close the inquiry. Curry against Aaron because there was a because there was nothing illegal about it right? Nothing illegal. Right after two months. They're like yeah actually he he didn't break any rules played by the by the same rules as everyone else. He just did it.

33:32 Very cleverly is so he actually used code and a public library in Sacramento, their access information. So he had act the access information for the Sacramento Public Library and he downloaded all those documents quickly. Some, it's essentially really not against the law. He, he actually starts to be seeing at this point as a public hacktivist icon. Have you had a devastating? No. But that's a great word. Yeah. So it's like it's a hat. It's hackers who use they're all essentially use their powers for good. So hacktivist entities evil.

34:13 Yes. Yeah. So he actually helped to co-found multiple activism organizations the Search, the progress Progressive change, Campaign, Committee, and demand progress. You've heard of we've heard of these things. These are things that come up all the time. He was he was cofounders of both of all these things or co-found these activism organization. So the aim was really to utilize these hacker gifts that he that people have to hacktivism and you can kind of force the hand of companies or organizations for good and and and for the good of the people. Like none of this stuff should be behind a pay wall. Like, you know, these these documents by the government should be released because we're already paying for them.

34:57 So he actually even stopped a bill from becoming law, which was the sopa act. And he really, he really created a name for himself because he was, Grassroots, campaigning talking. He was on CNN, he was on everything saying, look, sopa would really fuck everything up. And and so he's on CNN and these shows because of this Old downloading telling the come. He's like to download all these things that this is becoming aware. He's becoming a I would say he's more so of of an expert as far as like internet accessibility and and trying to police the internet's like don't police the internet don't police you know people from using it. It's it is the wild west it was the Wild West still say what kind of is similarly the wild west where government cannot go faster.

35:52 Yes no censorship essentially yeah so but with great power comes great responsibility. Ability. Right? He's becoming this this icon of like a hacktivist like he's trying to work for the for the people. He actually has a new database in his sights and he he decides I'm going to go after jstor. Have you heard of jstor Kev jstor? How is it spelled jstor? I don't think I have jstor. So this is a database. The database, It's actually an academic database. Gosh, I don't think I have.

36:33 They have like, it's like millions of scientific papers academic journals. It's really like, you know, these papers that are created by the scholarly minds of the world, really. Okay. And so this is where they publish their papers for whatever it is bass. Yeah. That's really essentially a database that has a pay wall, okay? Of course, of course. Yeah, so it has a paywall, but it's if you've taken a scientific class in in college recently, you'll know what jstor is. That's where you have to, like, pull like research papers or academic journals, but then you gotta pay for that shit. You have to pay for it. Yeah, I have a login for it. Yeah.

37:13 Okay. Yes, mmm, guess how much each article costs? $12? 60 to 70 dollars each? Yeah. The scientists who create these documents actually making any money should be. They shouldn't be, they should be, but they're not. Who's, who's making the money, who owns a jstor? Yeah, their Creed. So initially, it's like, okay, I would be like, if a scientist I'd be like, why the fuck am I putting my hard fucking work on this site? Yes. Yeah, because I'm not seeing well, if you're a scientist and you believe in Sharing knowledge or knowledge, it's not about the money, it's not about the money, it's about the research and the data. 'He and like, like trying to progress fucking people? I know so jstor initially, it was like this database, but in order to create a database, it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of like, you know, coding and stuff. And there are great costs essentially like to create it. But at what point do you say, okay, we're going to turn off the costs and make this free to people because this is this is all information that folks should have. It's it's Cutting Edge.

38:21 Well, it's, you know, it's so then to play Devil's Advocate, you sure a I mean there is cost someone has to pay for that. So I mean I guess there is a keep that whole I get that but yeah. For how long don't be 60 to 70 dollars for every individual article? Yeah. Like or publication? That's a shitload of money. The scientists are not getting in that. That's, that's the shitty part. Yeah, that's it's a huge problem. It's not like they're like oh we're funding like more projects and stuff. No, that's not how it works, right? So ultimately, if you're someone who had to do a research paper, even wanted to research specific information. Oh shit.

39:02 You know what? I think we need to jstor account. Do we, I feel like I'm writing research papers. They're like anytime I do. See something juicy. I feel like any time we are doing a podcast, like, the amount of research you, and I both have to do, we could find it in there. Let's add into the store. Got, we're going to get a jstor account, will add it to the list of Wands, okay? Versus needs, you know, those are two totally different things, I'm sure it'll cost like, thousands of dollars every single Fucking mirror, but it will just will file it back. Okay. Anyway, okay, so let's Flash Forward to MIT. So Aaron has the ability and access to MIT computer network. Just FYI, September 25th 2010.

39:54 He has the credentials through the open network that MIT and Harvard research felt. He's also a Harvard research fellow. So, like between the two, am I to really believes in kind of breaking? Rules in order to progress technology or science or whatever. It's like, sometimes you kind of have to break the rules, right? So, that's a mighty thought process. So they have open network, which Aaron took advantage of. He's also a Harvard research fellow and he starts actually, downloading hundreds of of Articles through jstor. And that pings the IP address at MIT jstor actually has an employee that like, contacts them saying, hey, look, there's a large amount of downloads of articles for, for the J, like, scholarly journals and stuff like that. That are being done through this IP address, it kind of like triggers.

40:49 It's like, this is like too much. So he writes code like aren't they pay the like this account is paying their fee ugly technically yes they were. Yes there are Fluffy Fu. So he's downloading a mass amount onto a laptop and they're like, apple is this right? He's doing it legally is he? Is he doing it. But know you're getting too much data, too much information. That you're downloading workers. Yeah, yeah, they're downloading too much. He's telling too much information. So it triggers the system, it kind of does like, a kind of like a trip wire and it shuts down any downloads from that IP address. So then what does Erin do errands?

41:30 Fuckin smart. He downloads. He uses a new IP address and continues to download in the fat. Like he's doing things in a very simple but like, transparent way where he's downloading a lot. It's all free everything he's doing. Yeah, it's not being a legal creep. No, no, using open network. He also has like credentials himself in or like jstor like credentials. His aim is to allow these Documents to be free for the American for anyone for worldwide, like, allow used to be an open source documents where anyone can pull from them. If they are trying to seek out knowledge and for my perspective like fuck yeah, fuck the man. Like yeah, of course, you want to do that like why is there a pay wall?

42:14 I don't use their phiphi for being knowledgeable. Yes, exactly. There shouldn't be, we shouldn't we should not create borders or boundaries for people who are trying to seek out knowledge and are doing so in a way that's not hurting anyone. Right. Right. Just you're just trying to move forward. And also, of course, then I think that argument is well, the person that created the knowledge should be compensated, which they apparently weren't doing anyway. Anyway. Yeah, they weren't, they were not being paid. None of the scientists, and stuffs all this. Yeah. No, it's bullshit. So, ultimately he is downloading hundreds, it's one, IP address gets pinged, they shut that down.

42:57 A mighty knows that there's somebody who's doing this. So who the fuck is it? We don't know who it is. How does Erin do it? Aaron actually has a laptop in one of the closets that's connected to a networking switch. So in a controlled access wiring closet at MIT so he has he puts up laptop in there MIT and jstor put a camera in that closet To see who the fuck is downloading this? Instead of saying like, hey, stop doing that. They say, we're going to catch this person right in the ACT. Oh my God. So it's kind of like a sting operation that they're doing for Aaron and Aaron just like this. Dude's who's just like I'm fucking I just want like, you know, open source stuff right?

43:43 Like so the door was on was unlocked from the beginning. It's not like he like grabbed a key and had like like the door was always unlocked. It's not like he was trying to steal anything he walked into That was already unlocked. He did things like in a way that was just convenient. Yeah. And people were just a little stupid for, for handling it. The way that they did, but he puts his laptop in camera catches him, the ID that Aaron's the person who's downloading all these documents. Wow, so J, star actually settled privately with Aaron and June, 2007, or excuse me. 2011, and he gave all the articles that he had downloaded back to jstor. So he's like, okay, fine, here you go, like you do, You're going to try to like sue me here all the Articles back like you can have them.

44:30 Do you think that Aaron dodged, the man Jstor is the database there like we're cool. We wouldn't be talking about Aaron and know that were the case precisely. So, in January 6, 2011, he was arrested by MIT police and a secret service agent at Harvard. He's a research fellow at Harvard, right? He never graduated college, he dropped out, he becomes a research fellow. And they kind of give him like honorary like access to Harvard shit like because like a homeless guy who's like a fucking genius is like, you know, part of us. So He's at Harvard, he's chased. He's on his bike.

45:13 This dude doesn't drive, right. He's on his bike. He's being chased by a police officer and a nut like a Sheldon. Doesn't drive either? Yes, yes, not too far off. Right? So, he's a genius. I'm like, like, he's like, what the fuck are people chasing after me? He doesn't know that that he has anyone. Who's he thought the jstor stuff was behind him and he's on his bike. People are chasing after him, like what the fuck is? So, he starts to like, chasing, like running away from him. From these folks and I'll help ultimately Breaks Loose. Secret Service. They indict him with multiple counts of issues. So he's charged multiple times by many courts who really State the charges of breaking entering with the intent of committing a felony. Okay, who wait?

45:57 Who's like literally after him, that's a great question. That's something we're going to kind of go over. Okay? Yeah, okay, so so because he thought, hey, everything's cool with me and jstor like we the database that I downloaded all this. It's I give him out back, there's no problem sorted, everything sorted. It's not all sorts are really not. Yeah clearly not. So he's charged with breaking and entering and to you know with the intent to commit a felony charges of wire fraud Computer Fraud. Unlawfully obtaining information from a protected computer and recklessly damaging a protected computer. He was also indicted with sea State charges of breaking and entering entering with intent grand larceny and unauthorized access to a computer.

46:44 Pewter Network on December 16. 2011 State prosecutors filed. A notice that they were dropping to original charges and then the charges listed in November 17th of 2011, the indictment were dropped on ultimately he is being charged by like with a shitload felonies and things like that. For this jstor, download these ultimate download after he had already a supposedly. Sell it out store? Yes, which I store? Yeah. Wow. So, September 12, 2012 Federal prosecutors actually filed an indictment, adding nine more, felt nine, more felony and counts, increasing his maximum criminal exposure. To 50 years of imprisonment, 50 years of imprisonment imprisonment, including a million dollars in fines and during plea.

47:37 Negotiations with the attorneys, the prosecutors actually offered to recommend a sentence of six months and low-security prison. If he plead guilty for 30, 2013 federal crimes, his lead attorneys. Like dude, we didn't fucking do anything bad. Like, we're cool with jstor. So ultimately they continue to pursue him now, when when Aaron was captured by the Secret Service agents and stuff, they put him into a chute solitary confinement. For an extended period of time. So he was in solitary confinement. He didn't really even know what why they were, you know, chasing after him.

48:27 He thought everything was fine with jstor. So he, this is before all of the indictments in the felony charges and stuff, they chase after him while he's at Harvard and up. Capturing him, he ends up going into and this is like a dude who's super, you know, he's not, he's in this is not a career Criminal Who was like, Used to being in solitary confinement, Lee and he's in solitary confinement for an excuse, not like, he's think he's doing anything as I know. I listen to it. No, he has no idea and he's in solitary confinement. He's incredibly like, what the fuck is going on? Like I have attorneys who are supposed to be taking care of this. They took care of it. They still didn't release Aaron for like, five hours after like his attorneys were like, you have no grounds for keeping him.

49:10 So like, things were being done shoddily and truly the In is was he being made? Made an example of right by the government. Yeah. Yeah. He will not take our shit. You're trying to take because ultimately, who's who is searching for this jstor is done. Well, that's just it. Yeah, that's he's like, okay, we're done because they're like, well, we figured it out. We've talked about it. So, who's left a mighty? A mighty would be the ones who are working with the government potentially to indict Aaron, because there's no one else.

49:55 That could be an MIT is a mighty is all about like scientific Minds. We want them, we want to. Yeah. Computer. Like idea says and stuff, but you are. They working with the government? That's a huge question. That's a huge, huge question, because there would be no reason jstor jstor publicly said, We were not pursuing anything with Aaron. We are fine. We already came to a conclusion. It's okay. We are not seeking anything legally against Aaron. Aaron like gangster people, you would think not working with the government. Would be a mighty right, right? That's EFT.

50:38 Who set up the camera? Was it jstor? Jstor hasn't been working with MIT in order to have it happen. Why was there a secret service fucking member who like goes and runs this dude down while he's on a bike at Harvard. Like why is the Secret Service involved? Yeah, there's too many questions and it seems like, I don't know, I'm not skeptical in this. I honestly believe that he was trying to be made an example of because he was so public and so princess, it's like like, hey, yeah. Hey, hey Smarties, yeah, don't guess what you think?

51:19 You're a hacktivist. Fuck you. And your hacktivism. Yeah. And and what do they do? They're going to try to make him an exam because he's very he's a very public. Profile. He's a very nice feeling is in Mighty like helping. I think I mean I think that's a great question. I mean, doesn't that seem like they are? It seems to me because if J star is publicly saying we already settled were okay? We are not pursuing anything against Aaron, you know, he gave all the Articles back were cool. If jstor's, cool with it, who's pursuing charges. Hmm, who else has the right to pursue charges? It feels like you would need the cooperation of MIT at this point for the the some of those things. Because, because he was downloading directly from there, like, you know, that closet that had all of the, I don't know bullshit.

52:11 Right. Whatever that is. But, yeah, I would say, Sir pointing it's super disappointing. Yeah, it's super disappointing. So, you know, the thing about it is like, as Aaron's, going through all of these things. Like it's very, very expensive. It's expensive. To to fight the federal government has hell. Yeah. And where did he get his money? His family didn't come from money, right? Which is why he was so principled. Like, he didn't come from like a substantive. They're not like Elon Musk who had like, you know, billions of dollars as a child or add-on, you know, Donald Trump like, you know, yeah. They're not, you know, born into riches, he created his own riches. And so, the money that he had was because of Acquisitions of companies that You were cofounders of like Reddit and stuff like that.

53:02 His money is driving drying up because he's fighting all of these federal charges and he's really incredibly principled, you know, he they talked to his girlfriend and she was like, you know, Aaron really wanted to become part of the government, like he wanted to work at the White House and you know, one of the conversations they had, they were walking in Washington DC during all this time, where while he's being like charged and going through all this like, Court bullshit. He said, yeah, you know what? Can't have a felon working in the White House. They have a what a felon working in the white house. So he's like, fuck, that's like he's so principal to really want, that's what he wants.

53:42 He wants to be able to create real change in the United States around open source and allowing like own information to be had by all the people. So, you know, it's a he that's a huge problem for him and he's facing all of these like these charges I mean, we're talking like, you know, 10 plus fucking phony, traitorous after his fucking ass there, after his ass, for sure, they're after him. Yeah, they were after him and he, you know, when you're up against, it's like David and Goliath, right? Like he's David, he's fighting against this. Like, you know, this huge monster who has all of this power, all of this money, he doesn't necessarily have the ability to protect himself and, you know, he they're adding nine more cap felony. Counts in 2012, September 12 2012, and then the maximum criminal exposure, to 50 years imprisonment, and then a million dollars in flat finds.

54:41 So, by the way, there are murderers that get off for less than that. Uh-huh. Uh-huh, exactly. Exactly. And then you have this guy who's like, is it really that big of a deal we're at right? That's that's, that's a huge problem. So like during plea negotiations with the attorneys of Sports like they the prosecutors actually offered to recommend a sentence of six months in a low-security prison if he pled guilty to 13 federal crimes Jesus. So it's like he was up against the wall there him and has the attorney rejected, the deal. And, you know, once again, like once they reject the deal, then he had they then the prosecutors are like up against him.

55:23 So ultimately, You know, he ends up not seeing a way out and he dies by dies by suicide on January 11, 2013. Oh my god. Of course, after his death, the the prosecutors dropped. The charges? And, and rot, why wait, wait, yeah, a minute. If they were that convinced that he did it, why would they drop the charges after He killed himself. Yeah. Why would you not try to say like why wouldn't you just say, yeah why. I mean what's the point of that? Really?

56:03 Even like showing like he was clearly guilty like here all the the reasons why I like we didn't. I think that they knew that they were making Aaron a skate go. There are make an example of him that is awful. So there's a huge, huge movement of hacktivism and And open source like sharing where where people can seek out knowledge and and find things like whether it's whatever it is that you're passionate about. Like if you want to figure those things out or like have like scholarly journals, like these things should be free to you and you know, I get the whole copyright like I wrote like I write a program like I read a thing that's my proprietary source code and but that is very different than When creating something that you want to share to the world. Yeah.

57:01 Yep. Agreed it's God. That's why he was like bullied into submission, so ultimate submission and he end up ends up killing himself. And it's like this guy who is like incredibly principled like, you know, ends up feeling like he's not, you know, what can, what can you do against the fucking United States government? Can't be like, it doesn't matter how intelligent you are your, your aft, when they decide that they're going to them and EM fucking MIT MIT. Well, that's the other thing too. When I kept saying like are like if they're involved and like and you said, if you got a mighty and the government Together against you, you are F, you're fucked.

57:45 You're totally fucked and and and we know that the organization that he was stealing all the Articles or not stealing, but really just cleverly taking from from the database jstor was not pursuing any charges, you know, I'm to play Devil's Advocate. I just and I don't want to If he was downloading something that is so, so kind of the same thing as and I want to derail here but if you were downloading music and sharing it or downloading that's not legal, right? So I don't want to give him kudos for doing something illegal, but if he was sharing things that they are creators in The Originators said, I want, you know, I'm trying to help the world or I'm trying. To better the world or you know do think that's that's very different.

58:42 And unfortunately when you go through those that place that. What's the jstor jstor? Hmm, it's charging you for everything. You're kind of like in a your kind of fox. Yeah, yeah. I mean. I guess from my, from my perspective. I do think that like knowledge and the pursuit of, you know, knowledge should be free. So as punk rock is that kind of sinful, that's not fucking punk rock. I would say that's just human. Yeah. But if you created some playing in play Devil's Advocate, if you have created something, You that is your thing that you've created out of nothing.

59:27 Yes. And if your intent fight, if your intent was to stop world hunger, that's one thing. But having a third party, now sell your thing. And say the now it is illegal. If you share that with the world, that is something very different. So as I guess it's finding intent at, that's like, think that's where it gets all blurry. I think you're right. I mean, bottom line here, I think we can say in Aaron's situation as he and jstor reached an agreement, right?

1:00:09 So J-Stars like fine, that was Don cool. Yeah, that's the thing that the u.s. government has done. Yeah. What does the US government? And I see with anything at this point and am I in my tea? Hmm. I mean, I think and like, I'll quote, like his parents. So, his parents said, he did kill himself right while Robert Schwartz, which is his father said, Aaron was killed by the government and MIT betrayed all of its basic principles. I don't think that's too far off, right? Actually of what, what happened is gonna sound like it? That being said, you know, fuck one. Fuck I mighty Like that's just a, yeah, if things are as, as we in interpret them to be, that's just very, very disappointing as the wrong word, but that's disappointing, it's incredibly disappointing.

1:01:03 And like, you know, you can watch there's a documentary really good documentary called The Internet's Own Boy, the story of Aaron Swartz, and I would say, you know, please, you know, check it out, watch it. Learn a little bit more about Aaron, and they still have like, Hackathons in Aaron's name, in November so mid November every year. They have multiple day hackathons that you can be a part of, you know, he, there are still quite a few things that we use every day that Aaron had a huge part in like RSS, you know? Feeds, yes, that Aaron had a huge hand in, you know, and it I hate talking about sad things, but I do think.

1:01:51 I think that the story of Aaron Swartz is one that all of us, could it's really modern day, David and Goliath where we have David Aaron, who's really trying to, to move forward humanity, and to allow knowledge to maybe are you breaking a couple of rules like maybe, but maybe we kind of need to like break a couple rules in order to get better. And at least from my perspective, I don't think he did anything with Matt. With Mal intent. Yeah. What are your thoughts? I agree. And, you know, I'm such a god it's hard because mmm, Yeah, it's difficult.

1:02:37 I I'm at a, I'm a type of person where the rules are rules, right? We all know the rules. We need to follow the rules. We all agreed to the rules. You do you think that you need to follow the rules? Well, but that's just that's where I get to the Gray Line because sometimes the rules are stressed nonsensical. I went for the betterment of whatever, huh. You need to break the rule. You have to break the rules. Yeah, but then someone else breaks the rule and they say, well, I'm breaking the rule because of blind. Your, like, you are an idiot. Why did you break that rule? Yeah, they're being assholes. Do not even have everything to do with intent. Like, we've talked about it before. Like, for me, personally, I am all for breaking rules. If if the intent is pure and if it's it's without malice, I think I am the type.

1:03:32 I've to think that rules are meant to be broken or interpreted in whatever way you want to. Things are not black and white things are more of shades of things are black and white. That is an absolute truth and I will go so far as far as saying when they wrote when our founding fathers wrote the Constitution, things were a certain way. Yes and while they were effing Geniuses and the things that they wrote worse so, It has such foresight. Yes, there's a lot of fourth on. Things are different? Yes.

1:04:13 Yeah. Yeah times change. Mmm. So breaking a rule that was written. 17 million years ago might make sense. Yeah, yeah. That that's, that's like a huge part of technology and like the United States government. Like the government cannot move as quickly as as technology does like you have to constantly kind of be on our toes and and I think that's a good thing. Like I think, of course like a lot of awful things can happen but and that's just it. Like, how are you to say? Say you're right, you're wrong. You can break the rule. You can break the rule that rule break is good. That rubric is bad. Yeah. What's right?

1:04:54 What's I think? I think Aaron was a true hero personally to you what you said before there was Zero malleson balls He wanted, he wanted people to know things that were would otherwise be inaccessible. So his intent was pure. Yeah. Yeah. And he didn't really break any rules. He just kind of bended them slightly because because they couldn't really find any like real issues that he had. They're using outdated laws in order to progress to create those felonies like the laws that they were pulling from we're like from 1994 from the soap like from crazy.

1:05:36 Acts that like made no sense anymore. Like there are super outdated, that's technology and government, right? Like that, and the company that he was having the problem with said by cool. Yeah, that's the thing. That's so fucked up and like, I would invite anyone who is curious about learning about Aaron like, you know, you can like if you're into hacking and into computer programming, you know, check out, you know, the hackathons that they have mid-november, but there are many ways, I think. To kind of Honor, Aaron and people who are really trying to push to push, folks, and to push knowledge being accessible to everyone.

1:06:19 And I think any way you can do that is great, but also check out The Internet's Own Boy, which is the documentary on Aaron. I'm gonna watch it. Yeah, you should. It's great. Yeah. Good. Thank you. That episode, that was so fun. I mean, I know you're not a nerd. I'm not a, I'm not a nerd like that. I'm not a computer nerd. I'm nerd. And you're a nerd. And like, sci-fi what? Yeah, yes, of sci-fi. And I'm also like an appreciator of all nerds. Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you for the episode. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Okay. Well good. We'll see everyone on our next episode. Okay, bye.